To file disputed EBOR or not

[zuzy]

Hi all, we'll SM told son last week he will not sign his application or give him a SMC on the grounds that son did not act appropriately at summer camp and he did not show correct leadership while SPL from Jan till last week.son already has POR signed off in book as,PLC for liferank.

 

My question to y'all is this. Should he just have his new troop SM sign it, or should he go the disputed route. He wanted to leave this troop after how he has been treated the past couple of months. SM and ASM claim that they were constantly trying to work with him, but no results. Rather hard to have results when there are no PLC meetings for 3 months and then cutting meetings short if not cancelling altogether.son is meeting with two troops this and last week to see how they are.

 

I am just mom, don't know what's really going on, just what I hear. And I haven't really seen too many good things from this troop.

 

Can you please give me your take. He does not mind "putting in dues" with new troop to have paper signed. But would you go the disputed route, or new troop?

 

Advantages, disadvantages to both?

[Tampa Turtle]

(I have lost count)assuming he does not looking at aging out I'd start out fresh with a new POR at the new Troop. He doesn't have too but I think he will just feel better about the whole experience. Yes it will be another 6 months...have you talked with the SM of the receiving Troop?

[zuzy]

No, he has not talked to SM of receiving troop yet. He met with one troop last week to work on an eagle project, but I don't think he mention the app to the SM. He has a meeting with another troop tonight. I will remind him to ask.

[fred johnson]

Be up front with the new troop.  Our troop has received a few scouts over the years where things fell apart between the scout and his previous troop and/or leaders.  It happens.  What we have done is very individualistic.  But if the scout is done with the requirement, then I'd say he's done.  No need to re-do with the new troop.  But then again, that was one of our situations and it was pretty clear cut.  

 

Start the talk with the new troop. 

 

Now if this is just getting paperwork for Eagle signed off ... then talk to the district advancement committee.  They've seen this before too.  They may or may not have answers you like.  But if things are as you represent, there is no reason the scout can't go directly to EBOR.  There is no penalty for a disputed EBOR.  Rather, it's about mending fences, etc.  

 

What I'm essentially trying to say is move past your existing troop?  Work with new troop or district.  Talk to them.  That's your next step.

Edited August 1, 2016 by fred johnson

[qwazse]

I suggest both requesting a BoR under disputed circumstances and having a conference with the SM of the new troop, just to get his opinion.

The reason? Well, it sounds like Zuzyson would dispute the reasons why SM is refusing to sign off. He thinks he should make Eagle in his current troop, but he's being denied for reasons that he deems to be unfounded based on BSA's rank requirements.

 

However, the boy clearly wants to be in an environment that will welcome him and involve him. So, rather than waiting around for some responsibility in the new troop, he should talk to the new SM about the mess that transpired this year.  The SM might include some other scouts, SPL or whomever. There may be some things that need to be done in the troop that would fit into his sports schedule.

[jr56]

By all means, have your son request an EBOR from the district advancement chairman.

Been in that situation myself, where the scoutmaster , for some unexplained reason would not sign the Eagle app.   I was the District Chair at the time, so I went ahead with the EBOR.

[Hedgehog]

I suggest both requesting a BoR under disputed circumstances and having a conference with the SM of the new troop, just to get his opinion.

The reason? Well, it sounds like Zuzyson would dispute the reasons why SM is refusing to sign off. He thinks he should make Eagle in his current troop, but he's being denied for reasons that he deems to be unfounded based on BSA's rank requirements.

 

However, the boy clearly wants to be in an environment that will welcome him and involve him. So, rather than waiting around for some responsibility in the new troop, he should talk to the new SM about the mess that transpired this year.  The SM might include some other scouts, SPL or whomever. There may be some things that need to be done in the troop that would fit into his sports schedule.

 

 

I think this is the way to go.  

[NJCubScouter]

I agree with qwasze's suggestion.  But before your son actually goes filing paperwork, I think he should have a conversation with the District Advancement Chair who might have some specific suggestions and perhaps other options.  I suspect that every council/district does this "under disputed circumstances" thing a little differently.  It is also possible that, depending on the person, someone might place a call to the SM that clears away the obstacles.  That seems unlikely in this case, I am just saying that a little conversation might not hurt at this point before formal proceedings are launched.  I might advise differently if your son was staring down the barrel of his 18th birthday, but that is not the case.

[CalicoPenn]

Talk to the District Advancement Chair and start the process to file under disputed circumstances - if your son feels he has completed his POR and the SM is refusing to sign off on the POR, his SMC, etc., do NOT go to a new Troop and have Scoutson work a POR for another 6 months - that could, and likely will, be seen as an admission that perhaps the Scoutmaster was correct in refusing to sign off and if things go sour in the new Troop (and that sometimes happens) you've closed the door to a disputed circumstances BOR.  Definitely meet with the new SM and explain the situation but make it clear that Scoutson is filing for an EBOR under disputed circumstances.

 

Your son has, it appears, already completed all of the requirements he needs to earn the Eagle Scout rank - he should not have to wait for another 6 months and do another part of the rank requirements again just "because it will look good".  I'll tell you now - no, it won't look good - it will look like Scoutson is admitting that he didn't do the work at his old troop and that could open the door to some unpleasant questions at a future BOR.

 

You've already told us that the DAC is familiar with this - it shouldn't come as a surprise to him that this is the route that needs to be taken.  If your husband is a Unit Commissioner and in touch with the District Commissioner, you would have heard by now that the DAC would find your son's applying for an Eagle Scout BOR under disputed circumstances was problematic. 

 

This is it - time to stop thinking about it, or waffling about it - just do it - and the next post should be "My son passed his EBOR".

[T2Eagle]

Given what we've been told I agree with those that say apply for the EBOR under disputed circumstances.  Don't involve a new troop in this, take care of the problem where the problem is.

 

The other thing I would say is that you and or your husband should first also ask to sit down with the SM and get straight from the horse's mouth exactly what he is saying and why.  Adult association is a Method used to achieve scouting's Aims, that doesn't imply that a scout is the only person who associates with the adults who are scouters.  Scouters and parents are partners, or at least teammates, in trying to develop the character of the young men entrusted to our charge.  Good communication, thorough communication, and transparency are always vital amongst teammates who are working towards the same goal.

 

This meeting/cup of coffee, doesn't need to be, and shouldn't be, confrontational; this should be approached as informational, if the reports you're getting from your son are accurately reflected by what the SM has to say then there is no need for you to try to change his mind or argue your son's case.  Just get as many specifics as you can, thank him for his time, and tell him you're going to think things over.

 

This stuff is all supposed to be fun for everyone involved, the scout, the unit scouters, and you.  You want to wrap up what's going on so that your son can move forward and get back to what scouts is supposed to be about --- playing a purposeful game with his friends while developing his character and citizenship along the way.

Edited August 2, 2016 by T2Eagle

[SSScout]

Yep, ain't supposed to happen this way, or be perceived this way.

 

Path of action as I perceive it:

1)   Scout has spoken to SM, gotten response. Not satisfied, sees things from a different perspective. Are things understood correctly?  Can things be moved forward from where they are?  No? then:

2)  See T2Eagle.  I like his idea/suggestion.   Parents always are the "backup", but make sure the Scout understands you are acting in his stead.  You should also follow the Scout Law in your dealings. "A Scout is Courteous, Friendly, " etc.    You do not need to be confrontational, only wishing to gain understanding and  cooperation.  Perhaps the SM can still be allowed to "do the right thing".

 No threats necessary , only seeking information about where the SM is in all this. How does he really see the Scout?

3)   After the meeting, then approach the  District Advancement Committee.  Again, ,, here is what we know, here is what we (Scout and parent) have been told. what is YOUR advice?   Can we ask for an EBOR at the District "in disputed circumstances"?   

4)   AND.... it may well be time to seek a new Troop/ Venture Crew to continue the Scout Trail.....

 

Buen Camino!

[John-in-KC]

Unless he's on the short slide to 18, I say let him take his time, get to know his unit, and become a part of it.  Then, it's a good and solid call by the gaining SM.

 

My thoughts only.

[Beavah]

Yah, @@zuzy, depends what yeh want to teach, eh?

 

I'm with @@John-in-KC on this.   Not being around to witness the boy's behavior at camp, I'm inclined to believe that a teenager who has decided to leave da troop after some struggles with the adults might have behaved a bit like a teenager.    Given the history and the lad's Aspergers, it's also not hard to imagine the adults not respondin' well to their perceptions of "attitude", so by no means is it all on him, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't learn from his side.

 

So I'm thinkin' that there's stuff for the boy to still grow from, and workin' with a new set of boys and adults without "history" is a grand opportunity to help him face some of that and keep learning.    I think he'll value Eagle and Scoutin' more if you give him that challenge.  "Hey, some of it is on Mr. Old Scoutmaster, but some of it is on you, son.  If you're going to really be an Eagle, you should show that you can be outstanding in your new troop, even though you're likely to have disagreements there, too."

 

At the same time, some parents these days are into the conflict thing, eh?  Teach the boy how to fight through obstacles and all that.  If that's what you're into and think is most valuable for your son to learn, then encouraging him to go the Disputed Circumstances route can be OK.  If that's the case, I'd stay out of it as a parent.  Let it be his fight.

 

My vote is still for the new troop.  I like lads to spend their energy building up themselves and others rather than being disputatious.  

 

Beavah

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm....

 

There seem to be two different threads on this, eh?  

 

I posted a response over in da other thread.   Short version: I'd let him have a great time learnin' and growin' with the new troop, and go for Eagle there.  I think it will be good for the boy, and good for Scouting, and be more meaningful all around.  

 

Long version is over in da other thread 

 

B

 

[Moderators note:  The threads have been merged, so the long version is above - NJCubScouter]

Edited August 2, 2016 by NJCubScouter

[NJCubScouter]

I have merged the 2 threads that were on the same topic.  It will still be a little confusing because one post above refers to the other thread (namely Beavah's shorter post refers to his longer post which was in the other thread), but I did not want to delete any posts other than the one by zuzy that was a complete duplicate.