Chaplain's aid prayer policy

[Hedgehog]

What was actually said was that Protestants and Catholics are two different religions, not that Protestants aren't Christians.  

 

 

Here is what @@David CO has said:

 

I don't agree with your statement that Catholic is a subset of christian.

 

Then, in response to a statement asking:

 

What part do you disagree with?

 

Webster's online defines subset as "a part of a larger group of related things."

 

And Pope Francis refers to non Catholic Christians as "Christians of other churches"

 

“As bishop of Rome and pastor of the Catholic Church, I want to beg for mercy and forgiveness for un-Gospel-like behaviour on the part of Catholics against Christians of other churches,†the Pope said on Monday at a prayer service concluding the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity.

 

“At the same time, I ask all my Catholic brothers and sisters to forgive if, today or in the past, they were hurt by other Christians,†he said. “We cannot erase what happened, but we do not want to allow the burden of past faults to continue to poison our relationships.â€

 

I can't imagine you dispute that we Catholics are Christians, and if the Pope recognizes that there are Christians in other churches ipso facto Catholics are a subset of Christians. 

 

 

 

@@David CO replied:

 

Pope Francis is often a wonderful speaker.  One of the things I like about him is that he usually speaks to us in a familiar way, using a more conversational language, rather than speaking in a boring, careful, legalistic, and pontifical manner.

 

This sometimes causes confusion.  Some people like to use his statements, given in a conversational style, to claim that he doesn't believe in or support the traditional teachings in our catechism.  This is a mistake.

 

I believe that the Four Marks of the Church (One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic) preclude the possibility of denomination.  So I do not believe the Catholic Church is one denomination of many, and I do not believe Catholicism is a subset. 

 

This is what I was taught in all of my catechism classes, both youth and adult, and this is what I believe.

 

I do not generally use the word "Christian" as a noun, as most Protestants do, but I often use it as an adjective.  I do hope that all Catholics would act in a Christian manner.

 

 

My reading of his statement is that If the Catholic Church is Christian and the Catholic Church's doctrine precludes the possibility of denominations, then Protestant churches cannot be Christinan.  @@davidcO has not at any point corrected that understanding and stated that he believes that Protestant churches are also Christian.  If I've misread what he has said, he can let us know and I will apologize for jumping to the wrong conclusion.

There it is.  Stosh's mother-in-law was excommunicated from the Catholic Church. I knew it had to be something like that.

 

When someone shows this degree of vitriol against the Catholic Church, 99 times out of a hundred, it turns out that they, or someone close to them, had been kicked out for violating our canon laws.

 

@ David CO, I am a devout practicing Catholic and I disagree with the way you are representing our faith.  

 

As an initial matter, Catholicism recognizes other religion as Christian. That is why someone who is baptized in a Protestant demonination does not have to receive baptism again to become a Catholic.  They have already been baptized in Christ and are already Christian.  I think you are misreading the doctrine.  Although Catholic doctrine, like many other religions, believes that it is the only true and correct religion, that doesn't require denegration of Protestant religions by insisting they are not Christian.

 

Also, I do not think @@Stosh is in any way disparaging the Catholic Church in his posts, but rather he is disagreeing with your view that Catholic doctrine requires a belief that Protestant faiths are not Christian.  

[Stosh]

"That friend speaks my mind".

 

I have had to disabuse folks of the idea that the BSA is a "Christian"  organization many times.  "Well, it's based on Christian principles, isn't  it?"  Maybe, but then why do so many other faiths find agreement with the Promise and Law, and then use it for their Youth Ministry, just as the Mormons do?  

Jesus was a Jew, did you know that?   I don't remember him being "disowned" by his synagogue. If we follow the teachings of a devout Jew, what does that make us?  

 

I have heard "Christian" defined several ways:   Someone who emulates the life of Jesus, tries to live their own life the way Jesus lived his (modern appurtenances not withstanding).  Someone who accepts the idea that Jesus died his torturous death in recompense for the sins I have committed so that God will forgive me.  He wouldn't forgive me before if I asked it of him and showed my sincerity by my future actions?   We still need a blood sacrifice.  Someone who does certain rituals and says certain things.  Someone who reads and agrees with the Bible.  How much of the Bible? New AND Old Parts?   All of it?   Only ACTS?    And what about continuing revelation,  any room for that, or is the present Gospel complete and finished?   

 

Old timer was asked which Bible translation he favored to give to the Sunday School kids.   He replied, "King James, of course, If it's good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for the kids!"

 

And yes, I think this is way past merely an issue or a politic.   We have done lots of "Faith and Chaplaincy" discussions .  I still feel  a separate Forum is appropriate and the utility  proven.

 

Stosh, any time thee pass thru Maryland,  I would treat thee to a piece of pie....    Squirrel on my bird feeder, dang.

 

Just a couple of corrections, the Red Letter editions have the actual words Jesus spoke highlighted in red and of course they have to be verbatim KJV.  But some scholars in those liberal colleges, I suppose, have indicated that Jesus spoke Aramaic, not even Hebrew.  What's with that?  We're still looking for a New Testament written in Hebrew so we can confirm that, so until we do, we'll need to keep with the KJV.   

 

On the other hand in the Norwegian Lutheran church, Jesus only spoke Norwegian and according to most paintings, Jesus had blue eyes and blonde hair which of course made him either Norwegian Lutheran or German Lutheran.  Scholars are working on that as we speak.

 

Besides Jesus being a devout Jew, we need to keep it in mind that so were his 12 Apostles and that makes St. Peter a Jew, too.  I'm thinking that Jesus-Peter connection has a wee bit of conspiracy behind it.

 

It was the Greeks in Antioch that started calling the followers of THE WAY, Christians, so I guess in reality Christianity isn't really a proper title for all these different factions.  Who knows, maybe the title was a derogatory term and the people of Antioch were not very PC.   I'm thinking they didn't really know what to call themselves.  Pity we don't have  any eye-witness accounts of them ever referring to themselves as something.

 

It would seem we have a whole lot of really important issues to resolve than wondering who's suiting up for the game at this point.

 

Thanks @@Hedgehog you summarized it very nicely.

[David CO]

Hedgehog,

 

I never said that.

 

If you have any honest questions about something I have actually said, I would be happy to respond.

 

I am not, however, interested in playing any more word games.  So please, do not put words into my mouth and then ask me to defend them.

Edited August 9, 2016 by David CO

[Hedgehog]

I am not, however, interested in playing any more word games.  So please, do not put words into my mouth and then ask me to defend them.

 

I'm not interested in playing word games either.  Your statements strongly infer that you think Catholic doctrine teaches that Protestans are not Christians.  You have have multiple opportunities to correct any misinterpretation but at each opportunity you have doubled down on your position rather than provided any clarification.  Your response is:

 

I never said that.

 

Now I agree you never came out and "said that" but it seems to be inferred from your statements. The statement you disagreed with is as follows:

 

Just a reminder here, one Catholic scouter to another, 'Catholic' and 'Christian' are not opposites.  We Catholics ARE one christian denomination of many, but we are still christian (i won't get into the 'first Christians' issue here as that is not ecumenical).  You can contrast catholic and protestant, or even catholic and a specific other denomination (Catholic and Lutheran), but Catholic is a subset of christian and can't fairly be contrasted to the whole.    In our council we clearly denote the various faiths for services, and if it is all faith we make that clear.

 

 

by stating:

 

I don't agree with your statement that Catholic is a subset of christian.

 

So logically, that can mean one of two things - either Catholics are not Christians or Protestants are not Christians.  That is, if both Catholics and Protestants are Christians, then Catholicism is a subset of Christianity.

 

If you have any honest questions about something I have actually said, I would be happy to respond.

 

My honest questions are:

 

Do you think Catholic doctrine teaches that Catholics are not Christians?

 

Do you think that Catholic doctrine teaches that Protestants are not Christians?

[qwazse]

Guys, this is ridiculous.

 

Of course Catholics think everyone else is lost sheep. How lost is a matter of upbringing in particular schools of thought.

The Pope tries to be polite about because right now, the world often looks to Rome for guidance and in some parts, labeling someone non-Christian is the first step in treating them in an unChristian manner. It's not in the Vatican's interest to condone mini Crusades popping up around the globe.

 

We're scouts, and we're Americans. We can handle if someone sees the world differently than we do.

[CalicoPenn]

I though I felt a disturbance in the force - and sure enough a post by Beavah agreeing with my position on the CA, and certainly written better than mine, I think.

 

Then I see all the titter-tatter, back-and-forth arguments about Christianity, Catholocism, Protestants, Lutherans and what is a denomination and what is not and realized that was the true distubance in the force.

 

If someone wants to believe that the Catholic Church is not a denomination of the Christian religion, that's fine with me, provided they are Catholic and talking about their own faith.  Unless they've come right out and said that the Protestant faiths aren't Christian, I'll accept at face value that no such meaning was implied.  It's much different than a Methodist (by means of an identifiable denomination, not meaning that Methodists say this) saying that Mormons aren't Christian, Catholics aren't Christian, or Lutherans aren't Christian. Yes, it's a form of holding out their faith as separate from others, but I do not believe it was written as if it were a superior faith, just different.

 

Of course, the concept that Catholics aren't a Christian denomination is hard for the vast majority to understand since it goes against thousands of years of our understanding of what a religion is and what a faith (aka denomination) is.  I will still, after this thread, maintain that Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity, and that there are different denominations of Catholicism just as there are different denominations of Protestantism (or does one want to ignore the Eastern Orthodox church?).

 

Theological differences?  Really depends on which part of Theology one thinks is most important I suppose.  If the study of the nature of God is most important, than there really is very little difference between Catholic and Protestant theology.  If what is most important is the study of how people express their devotion to God, then yes, the theology is different in some respects - the biggies being Protestants believe the grace of God is granted through living, Catholics that the grace of God is granted through works and Protestants having the ability to talk directly to God and Catholics using the intercession of Saints to talk to God.  Beyond those two major differences, everything else is really just a matter of style - a matter of expressing one's faith.  The fact is that a Lutheran can attend a Catholic service, and vice-versa, and other than the trappings and style, most of the service will still be recognizable.  The Lords Prayer sounds the same in a Catholic Church as it does in a Lutheran church.

 

In other words - Catholics, Mormons, Lutherans, Methodists, Episcopalians, Baptists, etc. etc. all do have a commonality - they are all Christian - and how can they not be?  All of them can trace their roots to the same beginning and we all are familiar with the initial divergence point. 

 

More to the point though - they are all - as are all other religions - globally major and regionally major - and even the minor ones - they are all equally nuts.  Not one religion or denomination out shines any other religion or denomination in general nuttiness.

[Stosh]

Yes, the posts are long and not well read and probably not all that well written.  But if one were to read carefully there are a few points that have stood out.

 

1) No one ever said the Roman Catholics were not Christian.  But it has been said that if one is not Roman Catholic they are a different religion which means unless one is Roman Catholic they must be a different religion, i.e. non-Christian.

 

2) No Pope since John XXII would say that is a true statement.

 

3) No Christian church body would say the Roman Catholics were not Christian either.

 

The rub comes from those who deviate from their teachings, whether it be Roman Catholic or some other denomination, and make statements not reflective of their religious tenets.  Not everyone believes in the same manner and not everyone believes as their church body teaches either, but these are exceptions, not the rule.

 

In the case of the OP's CA needing to pray in the Name of Jesus in an ecumenical crowd is not the teaching of most Christian denominations.  There are a few who would not participate in any prayers with other Christians, but that's not what a CA need worry about.  These scouts would be walking away no matter what God/god is being referenced.  As has been pointed out in the thread, Christian bodies that do not wish to associate with the universal acceptance of the Scout Law, have set up their own youth programs, Royal Rangers, Pioneers, TrailLife USA, etc.  The church body I associate with at the present time, discourages participation in the BSA on moral issues, but does not forbid it.  That prerogative is their issue not the CA's.  But the CA needs to be sensitive to those who do wish to participate.  He needn't be restricting the prayers to just certain religious traditions and willfully and obviously excluding others  So, I'll go back to my original statement.  A CA who is not sensitive to the religious needs of those he is to be taking care of, so then maybe prudent to have someone else who might do better at being the CA.  As a Christian, I would have no problem with a Jewish or Muslim boy wanting to be CA.  Heavenly Father, Jehovah, and Allah all work for me.  Great Spirit of us all works even better.  

 

Your mileage may vary.....

[SSScout]

Oh, THAT kind of Chaplain, not this one?  

[Stosh]

I don't think your link is working, maybe it's just my machine.

[David CO]

Hedgehog,

 

I disagree with both your inference and your logic.  However, you finished with two honest questions, so I'll answer them.

 

Do you think Catholic doctrine teaches that Catholics are not Christians?

 

No.  But Catholics don't use the word "Christian" the same way most Protestants use it.  

 

Catholic doctrine states that Christ's Church on earth "subsists in the Catholic Church."  In this sense, we are clearly Christian.

 

Catholics believe that there is only one Church, as stated in the Four Marks of the Church, and that this Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

 

It is contrary to Catholic dogma to state that the Catholic Church is a subset or a denomination.

 

Do you think Catholic doctrine teaches that Protestants are not Christians?

 

No.  Catholic doctrine teaches that people of other religions, as well as unaffiliated persons, can be Christian.

 

But again, Catholics don't use the word "Christian" the same way that most Protestants use it.

 

Catholics do not use the word "Christian" to denote any religious affiliation.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2016 by David CO

[gumbymaster]

I'm not sure I really want to drop back into this fray, but circling back to the original topic (although now we are in I&P that may be moot)  ...

 

All of this powerfully held, sincere belief on the part of our membership is why unless the unit is a Church chartered unit being used as an extension of the Church's ministry; it is probably not a good idea for a youth member, who in being true to their own convictions has to do their prayers a certain way, may not be a good choice for a CA POR.

 

Now for a little levity (or irreverence depending on your take of the world and sense of humor ...)

The Frantics: "Heaven is for Presbyterians"

South Park: "The Answer is the Mormons" http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=123_1190395606&comments=1

[Hedgehog]

@@David CO., Thank you for your response. I understand what you are saying and appreciate you clearing up any confusion. I apologize for misinterpreting your comments.

 

Catholics do not use the word "Christian" to denote any religious affiliation.

I guess it ultimately does come down to words. I use the word Christian to denote someone who believes in the Christ as the son of God. I don't think that Christian is a religion but more of a descriptive term for a group of religions with a common element of faith.

[David CO]

@@David CO., Thank you for your response. I understand what you are saying and appreciate you clearing up any confusion. I apologize for misinterpreting your comments.

 

 

I guess it ultimately does come down to words. I use the word Christian to denote someone who believes in the Christ as the son of God. I don't think that Christian is a religion but more of a descriptive term for a group of religions with a common element of faith.

 

I don't think Christian is a religion, either, but I recognize that this may be a distinctly Catholic point of view. 

[Stosh]

Hedge, would that mean you would not use the terms Muslims or Jews either because they would fit into the same category as Christian?  I hear Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox, Presbyterian being bantered around, but never Reform, Orthodox, Conservative being used in reference to Judaism.  Nor Shiite, Sunni, Baha'i, or Ahmadiyya being used much for Islam.  They say there are more factions of Hinduism than Christians have denominations.  I'll have to take their word for it.  I don't know.

 

I know that originally the followers of Christ called themselves the Followers of the Way. 

 

Is it a correct understanding that when Roman Catholics refer to the "Church" they are referring to only the Roman Catholic Church? or the definition of catholic (universal) Church?  I have found over the years that one's bias, prejudices or even bigotry is based on the subtle use of words that carry double meanings.  I am saying one thing and in my heart I know you are hearing something different.

 

For example: in my childhood (pre Vatican II) there were Catholics, Lutherans and Protestants.  Today (post-Vatican II) there are only Catholics and Protestants.  Where did the Lutherans go?     Church history tells us Luther (a devote Augustinian monk and theologian) wanted to REFORM the practices to adhere to Scripture.  It was never his intent to break away and protest (Protestant) the Roman Church.  The schism occurred when the Roman Church outlawed Luther.  So with Vatican II the reforms outlined during Luther's time have been resolved to Scripture.  So where does that leave the Lutherans?  Obviously 400 years of cultural and social along with political wrangling, the two groups have solidified quite differently mostly along ethnic and regional lines.  The northern half of Europe is predominantly Lutheran while the southern half stayed with the Italian papacy and the eastern was already separated into the Greek and Russian Orthodoxy.  Once all these immigrants reached the Colonies, it became less of an issue over time (Pilgrims at Plymouth were Puritans, The Dutch in New Amsterdam (New York) were Reformed, William Penn's colony of Pennsylvania was Quaker, etc.)  and once the Revolution established a Constitution, the whole issue became moot.  

 

So the ultimate question is: Is the pope holding the stirrup for the king or is the king holding the stirrup for the pope?  The words we use will never be able to define it.

[fred johnson]

Wow ... Glad I dropped out of this thread days ago.  Yikes.  

 

Can I recommend ... 

??