Chaplain's aid prayer policy

[John-in-KC]

Moderator's Note:

 

I stayed out for a reason.  My fellow moderators made the right call in moving this to I&P.  It's staying here.

 

We now return this to a hobgoblin witch's brew of apologetics and dogmatics, with more than a little isegesis.

[Stosh]

Matt. 10:14ff

[Stosh]

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/protestant

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Protestant

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/protestant

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/protestant

http://www.definitions.net/definition/Protestant

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Protestantism

http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/14300/what-do-the-words-catholic-and-protestant-mean

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/protestantism

 

As hard as I try, I cannot find any of the Google search references that say Protestants are a different religion than Roman Catholics.  The only time I have heard that kind of referencing since my childhood of the 1960's around the Vatican II era has just been recently on the forum.

[cyclops]

Really Stosh, are you going to try to argue that you must be right, based on a Google search?

 

John-in-KC, lol, at first I read your 'apologetics' as 'apoplectics'. Somehow my version seems to work better.

Edited August 8, 2016 by cyclops

[Stosh]

 

Really Stosh, are you going to try to argue that you must be right, based on a Google search?

 

John-in-KC, lol, at first I read your 'apologetics' as 'apoplectics'. Somehow my version seems to work better.

As one who has been in the professional Christian "business" for 35+ years, it doesn't take a Google search to know the basics of terminology and how to use them in a positive and cooperative manner and those terminologies that people deem in appropriate and demeaning.  Google was used to show that it is VERY DIFFICULT to find verbiage used by those on the forum as being sensitive, but are instead demeaning and inappropriate for the scouting community.

 

Judaism has sub types such as Reformed, Progressive, Orthodox, Conservative, etc. but they are all of the Jewish religion.

Islam has sub types such as Shiite, Sunni, etc. but they are all of the Islamic religion.

Well, Christianity has it's sub types as well, referred to as denominations.  There are the Roman Catholics, the Lutherans, the Baptists, Evangelicals, etc. but they are all the same RELIGION.  To say otherwise indicates an insensitivity comparable to the Shiite/Sunni conflict of the Middle East.  Obviously there is no need for such intolerance and bigotry in Muslim Scouting anymore than what is acceptable in Christian Scouting with Scouts and Scouters saying the different types of ones religion are in fact not even part of the religion.  That is a classic example of the definition of the intolerance of bigotry.  Sorry, but I didn't make up the definitions of the words nor the dynamics in how they are used.  It is just a linguistic fact.

 

Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, The Anglican, Lutheran, etc. etc. all have their descendants of the early church fathers as their basis.  Romans and Greeks separated because Rome fell prey to the barbarians (who also happened to be Christian in many cases) and were politically destroyed.  The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, Roman nor an empire, but there are those that felt it necessary to keep telling themselves that.  The Roman Catholics and the Anglicans split because Henry VIII wanted to remarry and wasn't going to let some Pope in Italy tell him what he could or couldn't do.  Luther was a Roman Catholic who was declared an outlaw for questioning the practices (not the theology) of the Roman Catholic Church.  So, how we doing on the political vs. theological differences?   Once the ball got rolling and Roman Catholics weren't the dominant power in the world anymore, the Roman Catholics took their place alongside all the other Christian denominations in the world.

 

After 1000 years of fragmentation as the political winds blew over Europe, we finally have John XXIII bringing people back together, but what took 1000 years to tear apart, to think that 50 years is going to heal it is pie-in-the-sky thinking.  No one accepts the fact that these Christian denominations are different religions except a few remaining hold outs in the Roman Catholic circles.  It's kinda like the Baptist who died and went to heaven and was getting a tour when he realized there was a large section that was completely walled off with no doors or windows.  When he asked St. Peter what was behind the wall, he said, "It's the Roman Catholics, they don't know the rest of us are here."

 

So if people insist on the intolerance of saying others are not Christian when in fact everyone else says they are, then they'll have to accept the outcast position they have placed themselves in.  I for one don't care, but I will not idly stand by and have intolerant scouts belittling others' faith by saying they are not Christian.  Having moderation allow the practice is kinda surprising to me as well.

[Stosh]

Really Stosh, are you going to try to argue that you must be right, based on a Google search?

 

John-in-KC, lol, at first I read your 'apologetics' as 'apoplectics'. Somehow my version seems to work better.

 

I take it one didn't read the links?  They are nothing more than the various dictionary definitions of a word.  I wasn't trying to do anything more than clarify the commonly accepted usage of the word.

[meyerc13]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think I actually agree with Stosh. 

 

As a Lutheran and a Scout, I've struggled with religion and Scouting for several years.  I was baptized in what would now be an ELCA church (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America), and confirmed in a Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LCMS) church.  From K-12 I attended Missouri Synod Lutheran Schools.  I became an Eagle Scout in the Troop chartered by that LCMS church.  I was married by an ELCA pastor, my son was baptized ELCA, my daughter was baptized Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS), I almost joined a Wisconsin Synod church but didn't because they believe their members shouldn't join the Boy Scouts of America because saying the Scout Oath with others who aren't in the Wisconsin Synod is a sin (they consider it praying with someone who doesn't believe).  So I went back to the Missouri Synod, where I remained until this year, when my church decided to drop their support for a Boy Scout Troop and Pack they've chartered for over 60 years.  Now I'm a Lutheran who is searching for a new Church home, the last two I thought were a fit turned out not to be because of their views on Scouting.

 

Sadly, that's just one Lutheran's journey through the various 'synods' of the Lutheran Church.  When I was in college, I was switching to a new Missouri Synod church and during the new member classes the discussion of synods came up.  The pastor explained that we had three major synods not because of divisions, but because originally there were thousands of synods, and through mergers we are left with three big ones (as well as many smaller ones most of us have never heard of).  So I asked, 'Why can't we all just get along?  Don't we all believe that Jesus saved us?"  He told me that yes, we all believe that, but it's the details that keep us apart.  I replied, "If we all agree on the main point, shouldn't that be enough?"

 

Most of us in the USA would probably look at the Middle East and scoff at the fighting between Jews and Muslims, or even between Shiite and Sunni Muslims.  We might say, "Why can't they all just get along?  It's only religion.  Aren't we supposed to love one another?  Isn't killing a sin?"

 

I think what Stosh is trying to say is that we aren't much (if any) better than the people fighting over religion in the Middle East.  When three different Lutheran Synods can't agree on whether taking Holy Communion with other Lutherans will result in one of them being eternally d@mned, then we shouldn't be throwing the first stone at our brothers and sisters in the Middle East.

 

Sadly, as Scouts you'd think we can remember that being friendly, kind, and courteous is as important as being reverent.  I think the point made earlier in this thread is that as a Chaplain's Aide, the job isn't to evangelize but to be supportive of other Scouts in their personal religious journeys.

 

It's sad to see the division that has come up on this topic here amongst fellow Scouters.  I hope and pray that the next generation(s) of Scouts will be the leaders in their communities at bringing all faiths together to focus on what we have in common, and spend less time focusing on what drives us apart.

[Stosh]

Why is it that every now and then it comes as some great surprise that they agree with me?   

 

I was baptized Reformed, grew up Methodist, confirmed and ordained ALC Lutheran, I now attend a LCMS church but my CO Is an ELCA Lutheran church.  I knew I was going straight to Hell right from the beginning so now I just do my own thing.  My wife was brought up Roman Catholic, spent most of her adulthood as Evangelical and now attends with me at the LCMS.  As a disappointment to some on the forum, she'll never make sainthood because he dropped Roman Catholic like a hot potato when her mother was excommunicated for taking birth control.  My family is majorly diverse with just about every combination of religion and race there is.  I travel a lot and would think nothing of stopping on Sunday morning and going into just any church that seems to be seems to be starting services along the way.

 

Because of such Christian diversity in my world, I would never, ever consider saying to any of them that because they didn't go to the church of my denomination that they were not of the same religion - Christian. 

 

Just yesterday after the youth board meeting of which I sit in on as a "member" even though I'm not a member of the congregation, the youth director asked me if my wife and I were going to continue on with working with the youth?  I said sure, but keep it in mind I'm not a member.  She smiled and said, "Doesn't matter, you're one of our lost sheep, every church has to have a few of those." 

 

I'm an itinerant preacher that firmly believes in Matt 10:14ff  I find it very easy to leave the politics, traditions and decisiveness to others to worry about.  I have more important things to do. 

[David CO]

There it is.  Stosh's mother-in-law was excommunicated from the Catholic Church. I knew it had to be something like that.

 

When someone shows this degree of vitriol against the Catholic Church, 99 times out of a hundred, it turns out that they, or someone close to them, had been kicked out for violating our canon laws.

[Stosh]

Really?  I didn't meet the woman until 4 years ago when I married her daughter.  Just because she was excommunicated 50 years ago, doesn't mean she doesn't attend mass every week.  Sorry, but you'll have to do better at digging up justification for your intolerant anger.  I gotta admit, after 20 years in the ministry I thought I heard it all, but your fresh material for such intolerance in this day and age is is quite intriguing.   The interesting thing about it all, one can now be quite sure of your Christian background and the witness one makes for it.

 

Pope John XXIII left that bigotry behind with Vatican II.  It's time to move along with the rest of the Church.  By the way, many of my relatives are Roman Catholic or former Roman Catholic, I have officiated at services and weddings with Roman Catholic clergy, both in their congregations as well as mine, I attended a consortium seminary with Roman Catholic, Presbyterian and Lutheran theologians, I have attended Roman Catholic mass in the past 6 months while on a trip, and I find myself quite comfortable with the Roman Catholic clergy friends I have maintained over the years.  Your comments are ridiculously unfounded.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Matt. 16:23ff  - Pie anyone?  Oh, looky a squirrel......

[SSScout]

"That friend speaks my mind".

 

I have had to disabuse folks of the idea that the BSA is a "Christian"  organization many times.  "Well, it's based on Christian principles, isn't  it?"  Maybe, but then why do so many other faiths find agreement with the Promise and Law, and then use it for their Youth Ministry, just as the Mormons do?  

Jesus was a Jew, did you know that?   I don't remember him being "disowned" by his synagogue. If we follow the teachings of a devout Jew, what does that make us?  

 

I have heard "Christian" defined several ways:   Someone who emulates the life of Jesus, tries to live their own life the way Jesus lived his (modern appurtenances not withstanding).  Someone who accepts the idea that Jesus died his torturous death in recompense for the sins I have committed so that God will forgive me.  He wouldn't forgive me before if I asked it of him and showed my sincerity by my future actions?   We still need a blood sacrifice.  Someone who does certain rituals and says certain things.  Someone who reads and agrees with the Bible.  How much of the Bible? New AND Old Parts?   All of it?   Only ACTS?    And what about continuing revelation,  any room for that, or is the present Gospel complete and finished?   

 

Old timer was asked which Bible translation he favored to give to the Sunday School kids.   He replied, "King James, of course, If it's good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for the kids!"

 

And yes, I think this is way past merely an issue or a politic.   We have done lots of "Faith and Chaplaincy" discussions .  I still feel  a separate Forum is appropriate and the utility  proven.

 

Stosh, any time thee pass thru Maryland,  I would treat thee to a piece of pie....    Squirrel on my bird feeder, dang.

Edited August 9, 2016 by SSScout

[Stosh]

@@SSScout one has to remember that in spite of the multiple millenniums of sibling rivalry and flat out intolerance, all three of the major religions in the world today are mono-theistic from the same source.  So over time, various prophetic experiences along the way, much duplication, a ton of interpretation, politics, traditions, cultural differences, etc. we seem to come up with a hodgepodge of what we call religions today.  They'll all deny their common source and kill each other to insure it.

 

Yes, Jesus was a Jew, and Allah is the same god as the God of Abraham, i.e. the "Jewish" God.  This whole religious "family" seems to be intent on making sure that their claim to the "throne" is the only one and that all the brothers and sisters are some kind of usurpers that need to be eliminated.

 

But they, whether they will admit it or not, are all interrelated.  Only tradition, culture, power struggles, etc. separate them in their quest for being the Chosen Ones that God likes better than the rest.  Kind of a cosmic, Mom loves me more, kind of argument.

 

People don't like admitting Jesus was a devout Jew, and there are those who feel upset by the fact that Martin Luther was an Augustinian monk, Doctorate of Theology and taught in the Roman Catholic Universities.  It was his study of Scripture that sparked the debate that eventually forced the Reformation.  I guess it doesn't pay to ask questions.  The really difficult thing to understand is what Luther started, it is commonly held among the mainline churches, Pope John XXIII finished.  The archaic abuses of the middle ages has now been resolved in the Roman Church.  That document which was pointed out in the thread clearly demonstrates the theological differences are now resolved, and only the traditional, political, social and cultural differences remain a stumbling block.

 

This is why I find it easy to not worry too much about it because these differences are not theological in nature and that is what really binds the world of Christendom together anyway.

 

Unless a Chaplain's Aide can come to grips with these historically disruptive forces and begin to honor the Scout is Reverent part of the Law, he won't make a very tolerant CA.  Our military still has to have it's Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant Christians as well as it's Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc. etc. etc. Chaplains because the government can't figure it out either.

 

The original poster seemed to have a CA that had to pray in the Name of Jesus.  That means he is incapable of being a Chaplain's Aide to any non-Trinitarian folk who might be involved with the troop.  It would be okay if all were Christian, he could serve, but otherwise it would cause problems for others.  Being Reverent means being tolerant of others beliefs, this means I as SM would need to find someone who is to be the CA.  I have to take care of the boys... all of the boys.

 

This reminds me of a situation I had many years ago when I was serving a parish in Iowa.  The State Pork Producers' asked me to do the invocation and benediction for the Annual Meeting.  When I approached the dais I commented, "I will assume I am addressing Christians today so I will use the traditional invocation."  There were quite a few  in the audience who frankly laughed out loud and yet there were many who had that comment go completely over their heads.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Stosh

[NJCubScouter]

Judaism has sub types such as Reformed, Progressive, Orthodox, Conservative, etc. but they are all of the Jewish religion.

It's "Reform", not "Reformed".

 

Feel free to go back to your regularly scheduled bickering.

[Stosh]

Oops, my apologies, wasn't paying attention.  Thanks for the correction.