Chaplain's aid prayer policy

[Stosh]

There are twelve classical world religions—those religions most often included in history of world religion surveys and studied in world religions classes: Baha'i, Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, and Zoroastrianism.

 

According to some estimates, there are roughly 4,200 religions in the world. The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system, but religion differs from private belief in that it has a public aspect.

 

Christianity

 

[kris-chee-an-i-tee]

 

• Examples
• Word Origin

noun, plural Christianities.

1.

the Christian religion, including the Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox churches.

2.

Christian beliefs or practices; Christian quality or character:

Christianity mixed with pagan elements; the Christianity of Augustine's thought.

3.

a particular Christian religious system:

She followed fundamentalist Christianity.

4.

the state of being a Christian.

5.

Christendom.

6.

conformity to the Christian religion or to its beliefs or practices.

 

 

Let's play a word game so that we can properly define who's in and who's out of the game.

 

 

http://undergod.procon.org/view.background-resource.php?resourceID=87

 

This is how Christian theologians deal with the issue.  Christianity is not made up of many religions, it is one religion with multiple denominations.  To say that two people do not share the same Christian theology is to say one is non-Christian.  It's the verbiage used by those who think others don't have the true theology and they do.  The practice is called bigotry by definition.

[Beavah]

 

 

People today don't care if they are Sunni or Shiite, they are all Muslims.  Is anyone worried whether they are Orthodox or Reformed?  Nope, they are Jews in the eyes of the world. 

 

Yah, hmmmm.....  

 

Sure seems to me that da Sunnis and Shiites care a lot about which they are, eh?  Enough so that they've been sustaining a religious civil war across da Fertile Crescent for the past decade or more.    I certainly know some Orthodox folks who wouldn't even consider a Reformed member a real Jew.

 

 

 

This is how Christian theologians deal with the issue.  Christianity is not made up of many religions, it is one religion with multiple denominations.  To say that two people do not share the same Christian theology is to say one is non-Christian.  It's the verbiage used by those who think others don't have the true theology and they do.  The practice is called bigotry by definition.

 

Yah, I think sayin' that Catholics and Baptists have the same theology is likely to be offensive to both Catholics and Baptists, eh?  They don't even quite recognize one baptism.  Theology of sacraments, sola scriptura, theology of salvation, theology of church, approach to Mary and da saints, on and on... seems to be quite a few differences. 

 

B

Edited August 8, 2016 by Beavah

[David CO]

Christian theologians of other religions can deal with the issue any way they please.  It is no concern of mine.

 

Catholic dogma, affirmed by Vatican II, says something quite different.  Stosh is apparently aware of this since it was clearly stated in the link he put up on his previous post.

 

So what is his point?  Is he saying that Catholicism is a bigoted religion?

[Stosh]

Christian theologians of other religions can deal with the issue any way they please.  It is no concern of mine.

 

Catholic dogma, affirmed by Vatican II, says something quite different.  Stosh is apparently aware of this since it was clearly stated in the link he put up on his previous post.

 

So what is his point?  Is he saying that Catholicism is a bigoted religion?

 

The Pope has made it quite clear that Catholicism is not a bigoted religion and I have stated it as such.  Not everyone, however, who adheres to the Catholic faith as presented by the Papal See,see it the same way and somehow think they speak for all Catholics. But they don't.

 

As a professional theologian who has studied such for many years, I probably know more about the Catholic dogma than most lay Catholics.  Having attended classes in a Catholic seminary kinda leaves an impression of what's going on with the teachings.

 

A careful and prayerful review of 1 Corinthians 12:15ff might help one understand the issue better.  Christian theologians of the Catholic denomination are not saying anything different than any other mainline Protestant theologians.  The only real differences are in terms of tradition, not theology.

 

The laity had a major eye opener when I was a kid.  Vatican II dropped the Latin Mass and put it into the language of the people, just like Luther did many generations earlier.  The surprise came when the Catholics realize the words in their liturgy were the same as the Lutherans and the Orthodox, and the Anglican, and the Episcopals.....  Pope John XXIII who I believe was the greatest influence on Christianity in the 20th Century, did nothing more than let his people know they weren't the only Christians in the Body of Christ.  A lot of folks resented that.  50 years later, most of them have gotten over it.  Not all, but most.

[David CO]

Anyone who is interested in learning the real Catholic teachings on this issue can google "lumen gentium" and read chapter 1.

 

No, Stosh.  I don't want to play a word game.  I'm finished discussing this with you.

Edited August 8, 2016 by David CO

[Stosh]

Yah, hmmmm.....  

 

Sure seems to me that da Sunnis and Shiites care a lot about which they are, eh?  Enough so that they've been sustaining a religious civil war across da Fertile Crescent for the past decade or more.    I certainly know some Orthodox folks who wouldn't even consider a Reformed member a real Jew.

 

 

 

Yah, I think sayin' that Catholics and Baptists have the same theology is likely to be offensive to both Catholics and Baptists, eh?  They don't even quite recognize one baptism.  Theology of sacraments, sola scriptura, theology of salvation, theology of church, approach to Mary and da saints, on and on... seems to be quite a few differences. 

 

B

 

One would find it rather strange that they pray to the same God, read from the same sacred scriptures and teach the same message would be considered two different religions.

 

Do all lawyers adhere to the same code of US law?  How about state law, can a lawyer practice in any state they want?  Does it mean that just because one is able to practice in Utah, that means they aren't a lawyer when they vacation in Florida?  Does an international lawyer mean they can practice law in Timbuktu?

 

Now the lawyers all know US law, so they are lawyers, but states differ due tradition, legislation, court rulings, etc. so they are restricted.  Does that somehow invalidate the law degree in Ohio just because one practices in Mississippi?  Or a more precise analogy for this discussion would be, just because one practices law in New York they are the only true lawyers in the US.

 

Just as the law profession is broken down by state legislative code, doesn't change the fact that the person is a lawyer.    Just because Christianity is broken down into denominations by traditional, historical and cultural difference does not mean they are a different religion. The US law applies throughout the US jurisdiction, but one still can't practice wherever they want.

 

Hmmm, this applies to lawyers, doctors, teachers, clergy, etc.  Some are state limitations, some are traditional and cultural limitations.  Is a MD better than a DO? a psychciatrist or DDS?  Seems their training overlap quite a bit, who's the one worthy of the Dr. in front of their name?  It is easy to see where the "I'm the only true (doctor, Christian, teacher, lawyer) and all the rest are "something else"  Pretty much sums up the definition of Bigotry when that happens.

[Stosh]

Anyone who is interested in learning the real Catholic teachings on this issue can google "lumen gentium" and read chapter 1.

 

No, Stosh.  I don't want to play a word game.  I'm finished discussing this with you.

 

"By divine Providence it has come about that various churches, established in various places by the apostles and their successors, have in the course of time coalesced into several groups, organically united, which, preserving the unity of faith and the unique divine constitution of the universal Church, enjoy their own discipline, their own liturgical usage, and their own theological and spiritual heritage. Some of these churches, notably the ancient patriarchal churches, as parent-stocks of the Faith, so to speak, have begotten others as daughter churches, with which they are connected down to our own time by a close bond of charity in their sacramental life and in their mutual respect for their rights and duties.(37*) This variety of local churches with one common aspiration is splendid evidence of the catholicity of the undivided Church. In like manner the Episcopal bodies of today are in a position to render a manifold and fruitful assistance, so that this collegiate feeling may be put into practical application."

 

One doesn't need to discuss it with me.  It has been said by many theologians that Pope John XXII finished what Martin Luther started.  Knowing I am Lutheran and Lutheran clergy besides, has never been questioned and I have never been turned away by any priest during the Sacrament of Holy Communion.  The world changed, but some people didn't.

[qwazse]

Mods, I would rather the core discussion remain in it's original location, and a new topic spinoff in I&P.

 

There are boots-on-the ground problems that are addressed here, and I'd hate to see that lost to scouters who might never open I&P.

[packsaddle]

Deeelicious!

[NJCubScouter]

Mods, I would rather the core discussion remain in it's original location, and a new topic spinoff in I&P.

 

There are boots-on-the ground problems that are addressed here, and I'd hate to see that lost to scouters who might never open I&P.

 

In theory I agree with you.  But I think this thread has gone past the point where that is a real likelihood - at least as far as this particular moderator doing the work necessary to make it happen.  The thread really can't go back into Open Discussion with all of the religious debate and bickering that is now interspersed through the pages of the thread.  So a moderator would have to go through every post in the five pages of the thread and move the ones that are not about chaplain aides, to a new thread in a different sub-forum.  It can be done, but it would be cumbersome and time-consuming.  In a few cases a post might not fit neatly into one or the other.  

 

This is what can happen when threads go off-topic.  In the future maybe people should be more careful about keeping their posts on-topic, and avoid adding controversial issues into a Scouting-related thread.

[NJCubScouter]

Golly gee,  and I thought this had been moved to the "Faith and Chaplaincy Forum".   Oh, right.....

 

I don't know what benefit you think there would have been in having a "Faith and Chaplaincy Forum" in this instance - or any other instance for that matter.  The thread probably would have STARTED in "Faith and Chaplaincy" and would have been moved TO Issues and Politics.

 

But you are free to ask SCOUTER-Terry to start such a forum.  Moderators cannot start forums.  If you do make that request, and Terry asks the moderators (and/or other forum members) for our opinions about it, then I would have to decide what my opinion is.  But I have never seen you really make a "case" for why topics regarding faith and chaplaincy, as they relate to Scouting, can't go in Open Discussion.

[NJCubScouter]

Stosh, please don't drag lawyers into this mess.  Your analogy is way off base.

[Beavah]

Yah, @@Stosh, I think yeh are a bit confused, eh?

 

Attorneys have to pass the bar in a given state.   Physicians are licensed to practice in a given state.  Priests and ministers are denomination-specific.  It takes a conversion process and re-education to move around.

 

I passed off your quote to a Jesuit canon lawyer friend of mine at breakfast this morning.  He says sorry, mate, but da passage is referring to the various rites within da Catholic communion.  Churches like the Assyrian Catholic Church and da Orthodox faiths that share a common sacramental life, and sprung out of the ancient patriarchal churches of Alexandria, Jerusalem, etc.  It's not referring to Lutherans, and by Catholic practice Lutherans cannot receive Catholic communion because they aren't part of da communion.  Not sure why they'd want to, anyway.     He says there aren't guards and nobody's goin' to throw yeh out, but you taking communion isn't really reverent because yeh don't believe in it in the same way they do.  That's not to say there aren't circumstances where it may be appropriate as charity (emergencies, travelin' without access to your own church, participants in ongoin' dialog to promote da reunification of churches, etc.).  Even then, what applies to some Lutherans wouldn't apply to Baptists or Mormons.

 

That's always been my understandin'.  I suppose yeh can think of 'em as bigoted, but to my mind that says more about you than it says about them.  

 

Regardless of how yeh feel about it, though, parents and kids are goin' to believe things differently than you do.  That's why in Scoutin' I think the more reverent and respectful way to go is to allow 'em each to pray in their native language, so to speak.  Shows more respect, and teaches brotherliness in diversity rather than tryin' to image everyone is da same.

 

Beavah

Edited August 8, 2016 by Beavah

[Stosh]

Sounds good!  I'll stick with main stream Christianity. 

 

And @@Beavah that's the point I was precisely making.  Nobody wants to hear that their denomination in the Christian faith is a different religion!  Give me a negative review for stating exactly what is being promoted by some on this board including posts with the Beavah names on them, and I'm calling out as totally inappropriate behavior for members of the BSA, contrary to the Scout is Reverent Law and why someone whose biases indicate they public state that certain groups of Christians are not Christians, but a different religion is justification for me to go waaaaaay back to my original post.  People like that don't belong in the CA position in scouting and for the most part I would seriously question their sincerity towards being a reverent scout.

 

You can say my Christianity is a different religion but I can't say your is?  THAT is bigotry.  My apologies if that is offensive, but I find that calling other Christian denominations a different religion is unacceptable for the scouting program. 

 

bigotry

 

[big-uh-tree]

 

• Synonyms
• Examples
• Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com

noun, plural bigotries.

1.

stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

2.

the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.

[Stosh]

Yah, @@Stosh, I think yeh are a bit confused, eh?

 

Attorneys have to pass the bar in a given state.   Physicians are licensed to practice in a given state.  Priests and ministers are denomination-specific.  It takes a conversion process and re-education to move around.

 

I passed off your quote to a Jesuit canon lawyer friend of mine at breakfast this morning.  He says sorry, mate, but da passage is referring to the various rites within da Catholic communion.  Churches like the Assyrian Catholic Church and da Orthodox faiths that share a common sacramental life, and sprung out of the ancient patriarchal churches of Alexandria, Jerusalem, etc.  It's not referring to Lutherans, and by Catholic practice Lutherans cannot receive Catholic communion because they aren't part of da communion.  Not sure why they'd want to, anyway.     He says there aren't guards and nobody's goin' to throw yeh out, but you taking communion isn't really reverent because yeh don't believe in it in the same way they do.

 

That's always been my understandin'.  I suppose yeh can think of 'em as bigoted, but to my mind that says more about you than it says about them.  

 

Regardless of how yeh feel about it, though, parents and kids are goin' to believe things differently than you do.  That's why in Scoutin' I think the more reverent and respectful way to go is to allow 'em each to pray in their native language, so to speak.  Shows more respect, and teaches brotherliness in diversity rather than tryin' to image everyone is da same.

 

Beavah

 

Obviously what one person says does not speak for the whole of the Catholic church.  I have participated many times in ecumenical service of the Catholic church under many different priests who have all known that I am a Lutheran pastor and was not discouraged from taking part fully in the worship service.  So whatever the Jesuit priest said might have been canon law but what the priests practice in their parishes seem to be two entirely different issues going on.

 

 

And so what is a Jesuit?  It would bode well to bone up on one's history.  I do believe Loyola was a Catholic mystic who was basically a professional soldier whose mission and the mission of his followers was to "convert" Muslims and later on the pagans of the New World.  I wouldn't say they were the best example of evangelism Christianity has to offer.