Chaplain's aid prayer policy

[Eagledad]

Of course, I don't know the man in question and was not there to hear his "tone." I have, however, found myself in the position of being the only Jewish person (or one of very few) in a particular setting, so I can speak from my own experience. I may be completely wrong about this individual, but here goes: The "tone" may have been due to the man feeling that he was being put "on the spot" by your well-meaning question. He may have had in mind that requesting that others change what they are doing for the sake of one person can have consequences. He may have wanted to avoid "rocking the boat."As for "special treatment", I am sure you know that that phrase has two equal and opposite meanings. Whether you mean good-special or bad-special would depend on YOUR tone, which I can't hear because this is the Internet. It does sort of remind me of the scene in "Fiddler on the Roof" when Tevye is informed that his Jewish community is about to be targeted by a government-sponsored campaign of violence. He looks skyward, asks God "Why", and says (with his typical dark humor) "I know we are your chosen people, but once in awhile, can't you choose somebody else?"

No, it was not that at all. Shesh.

 

Barry

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm...

 

I confess I prefer units that allow their boys to pray authentically, accordin' to the norms of their own family or church practice.  I think it does a better job of buildin' the sort of reverence, respect, and understandin' that we want the lads to learn.  It's truly inclusive, as long as each boy gets his turn, and da encouragement/validation to pray personally.  Or yeh could do it all at once, and make a truly Joyful (if cacophonous) Noise unto the Lord. 

 

Prayer can be personal or shared by a community of common belief, but there's no such thing as generic prayer, and we shouldn't pretend there is.  More importantly, we shouldn't hold generic stuff up to the boys as "better", because that's truly being irreverent toward their tradition.  For me and I expect for a lot of folks who think about it, da animist pseudo-native-American stuff that sometimes poses as generic prayer in outdoor and Scout settings is just awful.  

 

I think da OP has to follow da guidance of their chartered organization, but I'd have let the lad become Chaplain's Aide.  The boy had clearly thought about it and was interested in doin' right by the position.  Excludin' him because of his own deeply held belief just seems harsh to me.  Once in da position, I would have tasked him with selecting other boys from da troop to offer prayers and reflections accordin' to their own traditions on some sort of rotation.  Maybe even get him a set of da Religious Award materials matching all the different denominations represented in the troop and havin' him encourage those boys to pursue the awards.  With him helpin', even.

 

Seems just more brotherly, and more reverent.

 

Beavah

Edited August 7, 2016 by Beavah

[NJCubScouter]

If a discussion on the Chaplain's Aide POR needs to be discussed in the I&P section of the forum...

It doesn't. But if you read through this entire thread you will see a number of posts that have nothing to do with the Chaplain's Aide position. There are some posts that discuss what I would call "religious politics." Some might call that a "theological discussion" instead. Whether the thread needed to be moved to I and P fell into sort of a gray area, and none of the moderators decided to move it. In the end, it was I who accidentally said something that probably pushed it clearly into "politics" territory, but I have edited it out and nobody specifically responded to it while it was still here. So here the thread remains.

[David CO]

In life, religion and politics, we can focus on what we have in common or what divides us.  I prefer the first option.

 

I prefer to encourage and celebrate diversity.  

 

Having things in common won't necessarily unite us, and having stark differences won't necessarily divide us.

 

It's not a choice of one or the other.

Edited August 7, 2016 by David CO

[Stosh]

To judge someone's Christianity as "a totally different religion" than one's own Christianity, is not celebrating diversity.  It's okay to celebrate the fact that all snowflakes are different, but to say some flakes are not snow is bigotry.

 

After making a ridiculous statement like that, I might not pay any attention to him either.

 

There are huge theological differences between Catholics and Protestants.  They are two totally different religions.  

 

Sorry, try as one may, there is no Christian justification for statements like that.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Stosh

[NJCubScouter]

Ironically, Stosh, it is you who just pushed this thread far enough over the line where I have to move it to Issues and Politics.  

[Stosh]

I would have said, "So be it."  But now that it's in the I&P section I'll say "Amen."  I'll defend anyone's religion and their right to practice it when others disagree falls into the categories of Reverent, Brave, Duty to God,    Be warned.  If one takes a stand for any of the 12 Laws, be aware it could fall into the I&P toilet. 

 

And no, one does not have to do anything.  The decision here was a choice made by the moderators on the subject matter.  Otherwise it looks like a moderator's attack on one of the forum members.  It could have easily been moved without attacking someone.  Ironically, moderators are not exempt from moderation.

 

This should have been moved into I&P when members began attacking others' religion.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Stosh

[NJCubScouter]

Stosh, if you think I&P is a "toilet", why do you participate in it?

 

I also think it's a pretty discourteous term to use for a part of this free (to members) service that Terry so graciously provides.

 

And besides, the "Views" statistic next to each post shows that more people will see this post in I&P than saw it under Open Discussion.  So this idea that sending something to I&P is sending it into oblivion is a myth.

 

And no, your post made it mandatory that this thread be put in I&P.  The alternative was to delete your post that accused someone else of bigotry.  When the debate gets to that level, there is only one place for the thread.  Where, like I said before, more people will see it.

 

Plus, if you thought the thread should have been moved to I&P at an earlier point, you should have sent a flag report.  I know you know how to do that.

Edited August 7, 2016 by NJCubScouter

[David CO]

To judge someone's Christianity as "a totally different religion" than one's own Christianity, is not celebrating diversity.  It's okay to celebrate the fact that all snowflakes are different, but to say some flakes are not snow is bigotry.

 

 

Sorry, try as one may, there is no Christian justification for statements like that.

 

Catholics are not looking for you to "justify" our religion.  You practice your religion and I'll practice mine.

[Stosh]

Sounds good!  I'll stick with main stream Christianity. 

[cyclops]

To NJCubScouter,

Thank you.

[Stosh]

And no, your post made it mandatory that this thread be put in I&P.  The alternative was to delete your post that accused someone else of bigotry.  When the debate gets to that level, there is only one place for the thread.  Where, like I said before, more people will see it.

 

Feel free to cite where I accused anyone of bigotry.

 

By definition to say that certain snowflakes although different are not really snow is bigotry.

By definition to say that certain skin colors although different are not really human is bigotry.

By definition to say that certain denominations although different are not really Christian is bigotry.

 

One does not need to accuse anyone of bigotry, by definition people accuse themselves.

[SSScout]

Ironically, Stosh, it is you who just pushed this thread far enough over the line where I have to move it to Issues and Politics.  

 

Golly gee,  and I thought this had been moved to the "Faith and Chaplaincy Forum".   Oh, right.....

[Beavah]

 

By definition to say that certain denominations although different are not really Christian is bigotry.

 

 

Yah, hmmmm....

 

Except that's not what da fellow did, eh?   What was actually said was that Protestants and Catholics are two different religions, not that Protestants aren't Christians.  

 

Hate to tell yeh mate, but Catholics are in a different religion than I am.   Only thing wrong about da statement is that there are a lot of different religions within Protestantism.  

 

So if a fellow says that two snowflakes are different when they obviously are, and another fellow insists that they're not, what does that make the other fellow?  Not bigoted, I don't think.  Perhaps just confused? 

 

B

Edited August 8, 2016 by Beavah

[Stosh]

Sorry, but Christianity is a religion with different sub groups.  To say Catholics and Protestants are two different religions means that one of them can't be Christian.  If one is Catholic then the Protestants aren't Christian, but if one is Protestant the argument goes the other way.   For many years, this kind of bigotry has killed a lot of people and behold, the practice still goes on today.  The American colonists made a special effort in this argument and said there would be no state religion so that everyone would be free to practice whatever religion they wish. 

 

Some churches are separated because of political differences, but to say they are separated by theological differences means that they aren't Christian.  And "them's fighin' words", and the bigotry, hatred, and killing continues.

 

For those who were around "back then". JFK was the first Catholic president of the US and there was a lot of talk about the Pope going to dictate US political policy and a bunch of other garbage.  So it is obvious we haven't progressed much in the past 50 years because the fight continues.  "Irish need not apply" wasn't because they were Irish, it was because they were Catholic.

 

The religious bigotry "stuff" that floats around today isn't as obvious as the racial bigotry "stuff" that floats around because the racists make more of an issue of it.  As time progresses, the increase in Christian persecution will increase and it really won't make a bit of difference whether one is Catholic or Protestant, because to the world "they" are all wrapped up under the category of Christian. 

 

People today don't care if they are Sunni or Shiite, they are all Muslims.  Is anyone worried whether they are Orthodox or Reformed?  Nope, they are Jews in the eyes of the world.  Now the Muslims and Jews and Christians can play their petty bigotry games among themselves but it really doesn't matter in the long run.

 

So in light of all that we place the burden of Chaplain's Aide on our boys and expect them to sort it all out.  Good luck with that.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Stosh