Towing and safety

[meyerc13]

After reading about two SUVs full of Scouts crashing on a clear day (my family was camping nearby at a private campground so I am familiar with the weather conditions), one of which was pulling the Troop trailer, my wife and I had a discussion about how our Troop handles transportation to camp.

 

I tow a camper when my family camps, and find it more challenging when my two kids (Ages 8 & 10) are riding in the back.  As many of you know, towing is serious business, and requires more concentration than just driving.  Towing impacts your acceleration, braking, handling... and that's assuming nothing goes wrong with the trailer.  If you throw in high winds, poor roads, equipment failure (blown tire, bearing failure, problem with receiver/ball/hitch, etc.), and other drivers... there is a lot of opportunity for something to go seriously wrong - and when it does for things to be much worse than if you weren't towing a trailer.

 

I don't know the details of the accident I linked above, but a few assumptions based on the articles are:

1. The vehicle doing the towing was also carrying Scouts (since over a dozen people were injured in the accident, and the largest SUVs only carry 8 people).
2. The vehicle following the trailer was probably either too close or not paying sufficient attention since it was unable to avoid the collision.

I thought back to my son's Troop's outings, and I know that I've seen both things happen.  We allow the towing vehicle to carry Scouts.  We often convoy, and I've seen Troops in a convoy following each other more closely than they should.  Add to that the distraction of having a group of Scouts in your vehicle, and both the vehicle pulling the trailer and the vehicle(s) following are probably more likely to be distracted at critical moments.

 

I don't know about you, but I think this incident needs to be discussed at our next Troop Committee/Parent meeting.  I think we should institute a rule that a towing vehicle should only carry the driver's children - no other Scouts.  That reduces the level of distractions for the driver of the towing vehicle.  I wouldn't have a problem with an extra Scouter in the vehicle - to keep the kids in check so the driver can focus on driving.

 

Secondly, I think we need to remind all drivers that when convoying to camp - we all need to have the directions down so that we can allow sufficient space between vehicles.  If some drivers don't know where they are going, it increase the chance that all drivers will bunch up so that nobody cuts in between the convoy.  While I understand why we do it, I think we need to make an effort to avoid this.

 

What do you think?  Am I being overly paranoid?  I don't think this needs a new entry in the G2SS, but I think incidents like this should be a reminder to all of us that towing is serious business and we need to treat it with as much or more caution as we treat the shooting ranges.  This incident had the potential to be much more deadly (12+ people) than an accident at the range (unlikely to endanger more than one individual), yet I think it is an area of Scouting that we all take for granted and rarely include in our safety planning.

Edited July 24, 2016 by meyerc13

[Stosh]

@[member="meyerc13"}

 

You are not being overly paranoid, you are being prudent.

 

My former SM that I was ASM for would take the 24' double axle troop trailer, fully loaded pulling it with 4 boys in his Dodge Durango, averaging between 5 and 10 mph over the speed limit.  I always drove the speed limit and arrived way after he did.  How he got away with it all those years is beyond me.  I slept easier at night after leaving that troop.

[qwazse]

Trailer or none, when I have new drivers (to scouting), I circle them up at departure time and review Risk Zone basics. (Do not caravan. Meeting point is at xxx. Directions (with cell #s) enclosed. If you don't know where that is, speak up. Stop and call as often as you need. My navigator -- crew VP or SPL usually -- has my phone, so your navigator may text if need be. Whoever follows the traitor, if you can't see the into the cab through the mirrors, someone's doing something wrong.)

 

Even with veteran transport, we circle up before departure.

 

Bottom line: get your head in the game.

[T2Eagle]

The ending of caravaning is one of my proudest achievements with the troop.  You shouldn't drive based on how some other member of your group is driving.  You shouldn't be worried about whether you are staying with the vehicle in front, you shouldn't worry about whether you are losing the vehicle behind.  You should be worried about driving your car and the things happening with and around your car.

 

We don't know what happened in this accident, but you're following too close if you can't come to an emergency stop when the vehicle in front of you comes to an emergency stop.

 

I don't have a problem with driving scouts in the vehicle pulling the trailer, as to being distracted by the scouts, the driver is responsible for driving, everyone else in the car, scout or scouter, is responsible for everything else.

Edited July 25, 2016 by T2Eagle

[Beavah]

 

What do you think?  Am I being overly paranoid?

 

Nah, not overly paranoid.  Drivin' is our biggest risk in Scouting.  It's a risk to take seriously.

 

I do think you're jumpin' at the wrong fly, though.   Da cause of the accident in da other thread was fatigue, like as not.  Fatigue is no stranger at the end of summer camp.  

 

Towin' trailers adds some handling issues, but you'd be better off tryin' to make sure that the driver is fairly experienced at towing stuff with his/her vehicle, eh?  

 

I'm not sure what sentencin' the kids to be separated from their friends does to help safety at all.  If yeh want to do somethin' more productive with kids, put a more experienced older boy in da shotgun seat and task him with (1) keeping the driver awake and alert, and (2) help with navigatin'.   In other words, give the drivers some support.

 

For cryin' out loud, though, stop with da convoy silliness.  Tell people to use their GPS's, or their youth navigators.  It can be a fine and reasonable thing to convoy on rural roads or other places where yeh want to be able to provide support to a disabled vehicle or make sure yeh don't leave anybody behind.  We do it in da winter in more remote areas; helps to have a couple buddy vehicles to dig yeh out of a snow drift  .  Silly thing to do on a long highway drive, also not very courteous to other drivers.

 

Beavah

[Beavah]

Whoever follows the traitor, if you can't see the into the cab through the mirrors, someone's doing something wrong.)

 

 

Yah, hmmm...

 

If they've chosen to follow da traitor, doesn't that mean they're automatically doin' something wrong?  

 

I mean, a Scout is Loyal after all. 

[scoutldr]

I used to cringe when a certain parent would volunteer to drive on our annual winter camp to PA (about a 7 hour drive).  He would load boys into his Dodge minivan and head out, routinely doing 75-80 mph on the highway.  I am a stickler for speed limits, since I don't view a $300 speeding ticket as "just the cost of doing business" like some seem to.  When I would catch up to him at rest stops, we of course would be the subject of all kinds of ridicule for being "slower than grandma, but she was old"...and such.  I just always felt that with a cargo of children, it is not good to take unnecessary risk.

[Beavah]

I used to cringe when a certain parent would volunteer to drive on our annual winter camp to PA (about a 7 hour drive).  He would load boys into his Dodge minivan and head out, routinely doing 75-80 mph on the highway.  

 

Round these parts, doin' 75 on the highway makes yeh a hazard and a moving roadblock.     I think there were some college kids in one city (Atlanta?) who went around drivin' the speed limit and filming all the near-accidents, traffic jams, and road rage they caused.   Generally speakin', I reckon it's safest to go the speed of traffic.

 

Some adults drive lots of miles a year for their professional life and have lots of experience.  Others just drive da local kids carpool a couple times a week and bicycle commute the rest of the time.   I think folks should do what they're comfortable with, eh?  Tryin' to tell other adults how to drive is a losing approach.  If yeh really discover that some are truly unsafe, yeh just quietly drop 'em from the list of folks yeh ask to help with driving.  Over the years, I've nudged that along for a couple aggressive drivers, and a couple of timid below-speed-limit drivers, and one fellow who I think just couldn't see very well.  

 

Since none of us are drinkin', da biggest thing to watch and check on each other about is fatigue.  

 

Beavah

[Stosh]

I have always felt that the speed limit was set for a reason.  Those that follow it are not impeding traffic they are doing what is prudent for the situation.  People who feel the need to speed are setting safety standards that take into account no one but themselves and their importance.  They are the ones that are a danger, not those doing the speed limit.  There is no such thing as a hazardous moving road-block.  If everyone drove the speed limit no one would even notice those driving it.

 

I always drive the speed limit on clear, nice days, rain, snow, sleet, blizzards, etc. will get me to go slower.    I haven't had a ticket or accident now for 36 years.... If there's accidents going on around me, they are probably caused by 5 guys trying to pass me all at the same time. Of course it also helps to drive beater vehicles, too.  No one in a brand new Lexis or Beamer is going to cut off an '04 pickup truck that has it's side bashed in.  No, I didn't have an accident with the truck, I bought it that way.  Great price reduction and accident deterrent all in one package.

[Beavah]

If there's accidents going on around me, they are probably caused by 5 guys trying to pass me all at the same time. 

 

Yah, this is da issue, eh?  Folks goin' lots slower than the speed of traffic aren't what people are expectin'.  They force other folks to make sudden corrections or lane changes, and cause accidents.  We all have to decide whether puttin' other folks in danger with our behavior is OK, even if we're able to get away with it without wrecking ourselves.

 

By and large speed limits in da U.S. are set too low, sometimes contrary to state law in order to enhance local revenue.    Speed limits seem to have relatively little effect on either driver behavior or safety.  What's most important is goin' the speed of traffic and bein' predictable to other drivers, even if it's at a higher speed.  Goin' too slow causes accidents, and speed limits set too low cause folks to ignore other traffic signals.

 

Roger on drivin' an older vehicle.  Of course, I reckon that any vehicle used regularly for Boy Scoutin' looks like a beater. 

 

Beavah

Edited July 25, 2016 by Beavah

[Chadamus]

I wish accidents were preventable by simply driving the speed limit. Unpredictable drivers on the road are the danger. Gotta pay attention to the road and not the phone, radio, GPS, Scouts in the back seat, etc.

[Eagledad]

LOL My wife correlates going slow with being safer. And I can't change her.

 

Probably the best car drivers are also motorcycle riders because they learn to be defensive in traffic, or die. Defensive driving isn't about speed, defensive driving is knowing the traffic around you and putting yourself in the least disruptive position. Pilots call it situational awareness.

 

While situational awareness is an action, it is a servant action. Ironically for this forum, another appropriate term for situational awareness would be "taking care of the drivers around you".

 

Barry

[meyerc13]

This summer I drove from Wisconsin to Philmont, and then on to Mesa Verde and back.  It's interesting how different the speed limits are from state to state.  In Wisconsin we have 65-70mph on four lane rural and Interstate highways, and 55 mph on two lane highways.  It wasn't uncommon to find 75-80 mph in some states, but the scariest to me was US-169S between Kansas City and Independence KS.  I was driving that stretch at night, and its a two lane highway with no shoulder to speak of.  Brush comes right up to the pavement.  Speed limit is 65mph - a speed that in Wisconsin is only allowed on four lane roads with a wide, cleared, right of way on the sides of the highway.

 

This trip really did a lot to convince me that speed limits in our country are not based on any science - if they were there is no way that we could have such discrepancies caused only by crossing imaginary lines on a map.

Edited July 25, 2016 by meyerc13

[T2Eagle]

 

Roger on drivin' an older vehicle.  Of course, I reckon that any vehicle used regularly for Boy Scoutin' looks like a beater. 

 

Beavah

Smells like one anyway.

[frankpalazzi]

Last week during my annual summer AT hike (fun but exhausting!) I had the opportunity to travel some roads in Farm Country outside of Charlotte NC.  Small two-lane roads with 55mph speed limits!  I suppose if they weren't, going into town for shopping or dining would be an all day affair!  Driving like that here in Massachusetts would get one arrested for reckless driving!    Talk about "culture shock!"