Tired of Mik o Say!

[ianwilkins]

 

I feel Scouting should be an inclusive organization and Mikosay is the closest thing to being a "secret society" within the organization. Most of the ceremonies and all their buildings are closed to non-members. Members are sworn to secrecy. It creates a "your not one of us" situation unique to this one scout camp.

 

"Most of the ceremonies and all their buildings are closed to non-members. Members are sworn to secrecy."

 

I hope I'm not just being overly politically correct, but this rings massive alarm bells with me. Maybe that's just because, as someone else says, that kind of secret society schtick is "not my gig". It just doesn't sit well with me. If a scout is friendly and considerate (or kind and courteous), or a brother to all scouts, or part of the worldwide family of scouting, whatever your wording of the law, lording it over others because they aren't in your special club that you have to be invited to join doesn't sound like fitting the brief.

 

And when the kid goes home, and tells his folks he joined a secret club run by the grownups and he's not allowed to talk about any of the things that happened in the club....

 

Maybe I see monsters where there are none, but it seems ripe for potential abuse.

 

Ian

[Stosh]

I've been working with various youth groups for 45+ years and no way I would ever get involved with this MOS setup.  I can also guarantee that none of my boys would ever attend a BSA camp that promotes any of the US/THEM dynamics of social bigotry.

[MrBob]

"Most of the ceremonies and all their buildings are closed to non-members. Members are sworn to secrecy."

 

I hope I'm not just being overly politically correct, but this rings massive alarm bells with me. Maybe that's just because, as someone else says, that kind of secret society schtick is "not my gig". It just doesn't sit well with me. If a scout is friendly and considerate (or kind and courteous), or a brother to all scouts, or part of the worldwide family of scouting, whatever your wording of the law, lording it over others because they aren't in your special club that you have to be invited to join doesn't sound like fitting the brief.

 

And when the kid goes home, and tells his folks he joined a secret club run by the grownups and he's not allowed to talk about any of the things that happened in the club....

 

Maybe I see monsters where there are none, but it seems ripe for potential abuse.

 

Ian

 

That (based on the description) has YPT violations written all over it.

[Stosh]

Like I said 45+ years working with youth and one stays away from such things if they wish to continue.  How such things stay viable in the BSA is kinda surprising.  I'm with @@MrBob on this one, it is rife with YPT violation possibilities.  Nothing said so far remotely resembles the Scout Oath and Law when describing this "wonderful" program.  "Yep, just drink the Koolaid and you're all set to go!"

 

Besides YPT, one might want to toss in a lesson on bullying and drop "A Scout is friend to all..."  while they are at it.

[miranthis]

Not to dampen the enthusiasm of you guys, but the current Chieftain of Mic-O-Say is the CSE, Mike Surbaugh. I think BSA has all the facts they need about MOS. 
http://www.hoac-bsa.org/mic-o-say-bio-michael-surbaugh

[qwazse]

Not to dampen the enthusiasm of you guys, but the current Chieftain of Mic-O-Say is the CSE, Mike Surbaugh. I think BSA has all the facts they need about MOS. 

http://www.hoac-bsa.org/mic-o-say-bio-michael-surbaugh

Well, hopefully Mike is listening!

[Stosh]

Looks to be organized to be more adult led than OA.    So why then is there an OA in this council?  Or is that for the boys that can get into an honor society on a vote rather than good-old-boys invitations? 

 

And what happens to the boys that never get an invitation?

Edited July 18, 2016 by Stosh

[walk in the woods]

I was in a Mic-O-Say spin off (combination of Mic-O-Say and OA actually) at the summer camp I attended as a youth (70s into the 80s).  The Scout Exec that created the program in the old Southeast Iowa Council came from HOAC.  Frankly, it was a great program.  The paint stations were a draw for many older youth to continue coming to camp and stay involved in scouting.  When the rest of scouting was struggling with the ISP, we were at camp!  Adult association, youth fellowship, personal development, youth leadership, service to council and camp, and strong value system reinforcement.  Yeah, it was terrible.

 

The traditions were reserved for members but concerned parents and/or adult leaders could certainly see what was going on by simply asking.  I don't recall any units that didn't have at least one adult in the Tribe.  I also don't recall many parents asking questions.  

 

Sorry, I hear sour grapes from the OP trying to indict a program that's been around almost as long as the BSA has been.

[walk in the woods]

I'd like to ask, what do you think you gained from Micosay? I've talked to several members and they have admitted their is really little advantage in real life outside Bartle. it doesnt help you get into college or a job.

 

I mean think of it. If you were in say New York and you had your Micosay necklace with all your beads and your painted claws, they wouldnt know its meaning.

I can reply for my experience:

 

- A sense of pride in work completed at camp during conclaves

- A sense of belonging to an organization bigger than myself

- Opportunities to practice leadership at various levels in various tasks

- Opportunities to understand responsibility to others

- Friends

- Fellowship

 

Your hypothetical folks in NY probably wouldn't know the meaning of the patches on my scout uniform.  I was in the Navy for a few years, those folks in NY wouldn't understand the meaning of the ribbons on my uniform.  That's doesn't take away their meaning and value to me.

[Stosh]

I can reply for my experience:

 

- A sense of pride in work completed at camp during conclaves

- A sense of belonging to an organization bigger than myself

- Opportunities to practice leadership at various levels in various tasks

- Opportunities to understand responsibility to others

- Friends

- Fellowship

 

Your hypothetical folks in NY probably wouldn't know the meaning of the patches on my scout uniform.  I was in the Navy for a few years, those folks in NY wouldn't understand the meaning of the ribbons on my uniform.  That's doesn't take away their meaning and value to me.

 

Yet any of those items mentioned can be addressed with Boy Scouting in general, they don't need a secret society to make it more important.  Mic-o-Say Chieftain on your college application or employment resume means nothing to anyone other than the candidate.  But Eagle Scout does.  A focus on Scouting without the distractions might prove well to restore a lot of what BSA has lost in the second half of it's existence.

 

I was a Scout - That speaks for itself, plain simple and says a lot.

 

I am an Eagle Scout - Okay, impressive.

 

I am an Eagle Scout with Palms - Okay, but I don't know what that means.

 

I am an Eagle Scout with Palms, OA Vigil - Lost me there.

 

I am an Eagle Scout with Palms, OA Vigil, NYLT trained.  Yawn

 

I am an Eagle Scout with Palms, OA vigil, NYLT trained, Mic-O-Say Chieftain - zzzzzz

 

Sorry, but when one gets that far out on a limb, the issue might only be important to the person hanging on to it.

[walk in the woods]

Yet any of those items mentioned can be addressed with Boy Scouting in general, they don't need a secret society to make it more important.  Mic-o-Say Chieftain on your college application or employment resume means nothing to anyone other than the candidate.  But Eagle Scout does.  A focus on Scouting without the distractions might prove well to restore a lot of what BSA has lost in the second half of it's existence.

 

I was a Scout - That speaks for itself, plain simple and says a lot.

 

I am an Eagle Scout - Okay, impressive.

 

I am an Eagle Scout with Palms - Okay, but I don't know what that means.

 

I am an Eagle Scout with Palms, OA Vigil - Lost me there.

 

I am an Eagle Scout with Palms, OA Vigil, NYLT trained.  Yawn

 

I am an Eagle Scout with Palms, OA vigil, NYLT trained, Mic-O-Say Chieftain - zzzzzz

 

Sorry, but when one gets that far out on a limb, the issue might only be important to the person hanging on to it.

 

ok, well first, other than the OP, who said it was a secret society?  My experience with the Tribe of my youth and the OA today is that a parent or leader that makes a concerned query about the program will get the information they want to make a decision.  Participation is voluntary.

 

Next, the things I mentioned are available through Boy Scouting but were expanded and increased through my participation in the Tribe.  I grew up in a very small town, being in the Tribe gave me multiple opportunities far beyond what I received through the Troop alone.  Mic-O-Say, like OA and Venturing and Sea Scouting are programs to help keep older youth engaged with Scouting so we can meet the mission.  I stayed in scouting, and became an Eagle, because of the Tribe.

 

Finally, since when is scouting about honors to place on a resume or college application????

[Stosh]

Whenever I filled out a resume and college application there were places for community involvement and service.  My church, Scouting and Red Cross seemed to catch the attention of a lot of interviewers.  My children as well mentioned that college entrance people were interested in more than one's academic record.

[SpEdScouter]

I was in a Mic-O-Say spin off (combination of Mic-O-Say and OA actually) at the summer camp I attended as a youth (70s into the 80s).  The Scout Exec that created the program in the old Southeast Iowa Council came from HOAC.  Frankly, it was a great program.  The paint stations were a draw for many older youth to continue coming to camp and stay involved in scouting.  When the rest of scouting was struggling with the ISP, we were at camp!  Adult association, youth fellowship, personal development, youth leadership, service to council and camp, and strong value system reinforcement.  Yeah, it was terrible.

 

The traditions were reserved for members but concerned parents and/or adult leaders could certainly see what was going on by simply asking.  I don't recall any units that didn't have at least one adult in the Tribe.  I also don't recall many parents asking questions.  

 

Sorry, I hear sour grapes from the OP trying to indict a program that's been around almost as long as the BSA has been.

It has been around but only in the HOA district. If one wore their claws in say California they wouldnt know what they are.

 

And I think its a little more than "sour grapes". When you go to Bartle you have to sit thru an endless barrage of Mic stuff like speeches, dancing, callouts and all that. As an adult just try and talk to a group of Mic people and see how quickly you are shunned.

 

When it comes down to it Mic works to keep older scouts involved and adults involved and of course, paying money in.

[walk in the woods]

It has been around but only in the HOA district. If one wore their claws in say California they wouldnt know what they are.

OK, and that's bad why? My council runs a winter camping program. Folks who complete the course get a lanyard with acrylic cubes. Nobody in CA knows what those are either. Small/Local <> bad.

 

As an adult just try and talk to a group of Mic people and see how quickly you are shunned.

Not my experience. I've run into Mic-O-Say folks a few times in my adult scouting career and enjoyed my conversations with them.

 

When it comes down to it Mic works to keep older scouts involved and adults involved and of course, paying money in.

All camps have their traditions. Mic-O-Say is nearly 100 years old. If it's still keeping older scouts engaged and working for Bartle there's something to it.

The Mic-O-Say traditions at the camp of my youth are still strong and growing.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[miranthis]

Actually, in addition to MOS we also have the largest OA lodge in the country, Tamegonit Lodge 147, and we have a much higher than average Eagle scout rate, or so national keeps telling us.  MOS is also at Pony express Council and they have NO OA lodge.  There are also offshoots of MOS in the Tribe of Lone Bear over at Camp Arrowhead and others more distantly related.  

As a person who was born, raised and works in the KC Metro, in the business world, being an Eagle Scout, Tribesman of MOS,and/or an Arrowman of Tamegonit Lodge 147 all get you to the top of my list at interview time.  Heck, when I got my current job 4 years ago, one of the interview questions was about my tribal name in MOS.  All the prime movers in law, banking, construction, government, etc. are either MOS folks or have given enough time and or treasure to the council to know what it is about.  

It clearly benefits the boys, as our average scout goes to 5 years of summer camp and makes at least life scout.  It is much like a fraternal organization and the higher-ups are all adults.  But then our OA Lodge is a well run, boy lead endeavor and both programs benefit from the association.  I am an adult advisor to the OATR of our troop and assist at the Chapter level and with the Lodge Ceremonial team, and I encourage all the scouts that have the opportunity, to take advantage of both programs.
 

BSA is aware and has been for tens of decades.  Just like scouting in general, Mic-O-Say is for everyone, but not everyone is for Mic-O-Say.

 

just my 2 cents.  YMMV and all that.