Tired of Mik o Say!

[SpEdScouter]

My son just got back from Bartle and he said he was really getting tired about how much they pushed Mikosay down there. For those of you not in the Heart of America district the Tribe of Mikosay http://www.hoac-bsa.org/mic-o-say is a local scouting honor society similar to Order of the Arrow.

 

Now I really have no problem with the group but its just that they push it so much. At Camp Bartle they have specific areas where only Mikosay members can enter (granted they are very small). Almost every evenings campfire was centered around Mikosay (callouts and such) especially nights 4,6 and 8. Non-members have to sit thru it anyways. Mikosay members have a different method of praying at meals. At campfires they separate out the Mikosay (called tribesmen) and non-Mikosay members.  My son really was tired of it all (he has been asked to join twice). As an adult leader down there you get the cold shoulder from members sometimes if your not wearing the claws and I get asked alot why I am not a member.  To see the influence you can check out the Bartle program guide here. Every time you see pictures of Scouts in Indian attire, those are all Mikosay. The Indian Lore merit badge is targeted for those entering Mikosay.

 

Frankly I really do not see much benefit from the group other than keeping the person closely involved in scouting even as adults. Part of the reason we go to Bartle in the first place is most of the scout leaders are Mikosay members.

 

I feel Scouting should be an inclusive organization and Mikosay is the closest thing to being a "secret society" within the organization. Most of the ceremonies and all their buildings are closed to non-members. Members are sworn to secrecy. It creates a "your not one of us" situation unique to this one scout camp.

 

 

[qwazse]

Well, that is unfortunate. Your son may want to spend the next summer camp as a provisional scout at a different BSA facility. Or, maybe by next year he'll be over it and want to join the club.

 

But your son may not be alone. I suggest you ask some of the scouters in your troop if they also thought this year they laid it on particularly thick. If they are members, maybe they'll be able to relay the sentiment up the chain.

[Stosh]

The exclusive vs. inclusive dynamics are a sensitive area that Boy Scouts should not be involved with.  Any auxiliary program that isn't designed to help the whole is not something I want any part of.  Us and them have no place in the BSA.  One sees a bit of it with the OA and WB.  Secrecy is strictly forbidden in Scouting for good reasons.

[desertrat77]

I attended summer camp at Bartle in the '80s as an adult, and became a member of Mic O Say.

 

It is a neat organization.   However, I recall a very heavy-handed "us/them" spirit in the camp.   Instead of displaying a respectful quiet pride, many MOS members lorded their status over the non-MOS often.   Scouts and scouters.   At times it bordered on being obnoxious.

 

The OA has been guilty of this in the past as well. 

 

I have no problem with organizations like MOS and OA, but good grief, carry yourself with some dignity if you get chosen.    The put downs and puffed up attitudes reflect poorly.

[SpEdScouter]

I attended summer camp at Bartle in the '80s as an adult, and became a member of Mic O Say.

 

It is a neat organization.   However, I recall a very heavy-handed "us/them" spirit in the camp.   Instead of displaying a respectful quiet pride, many MOS members lorded their status over the non-MOS often.   Scouts and scouters.   At times it bordered on being obnoxious.

 

The OA has been guilty of this in the past as well. 

 

I have no problem with organizations like MOS and OA, but good grief, carry yourself with some dignity if you get chosen.    The put downs and puffed up attitudes reflect poorly.

I'd like to ask, what do you think you gained from Micosay? I've talked to several members and they have admitted their is really little advantage in real life outside Bartle. it doesnt help you get into college or a job.

 

I mean think of it. If you were in say New York and you had your Micosay necklace with all your beads and your painted claws, they wouldnt know its meaning.

[desertrat77]

I'd like to ask, what do you think you gained from Micosay? I've talked to several members and they have admitted their is really little advantage in real life outside Bartle. it doesnt help you get into college or a job.

 

I mean think of it. If you were in say New York and you had your Micosay necklace with all your beads and your painted claws, they wouldnt know its meaning.

Good question.  

 

As I look back, it was quite an honor to be nominated by a close friend who has since passed away.   He came up thru the ranks as a youth.  

 

The main benefits are intangible--nominated by my friend, impressive ceremonies, learning the principles/values of Mic O Say.  

 

Tangible--none outside of Bartle.  

 

While I have good memories about it, I also recall the condescending spirit that seemed to pop up regularly that week.   "We are in, and the rest of you are out."   The adults were the absolute worse, though.

 

That said, I would still encourage you son to strive for nomination. 

 

When my daughter was a freshman on the swimming team, she said she didn't like how demeaning the seniors were, and doubted whether she should stay on the team.

 

I offered this:   don't give up on something good because of some donkeys.   And when progressing through the higher grades, you can set an example of mutual respect and understanding.   

 

I feel the same way about Mic O Say.

Edited July 16, 2016 by desertrat77

[Stosh]

Hmmmm, how does any of this correlate to bullying?  I would find it difficult to fit it into my "Take care of your boys" Leadership emphasis.

[DuctTape]

As someone who knows nothing of this group, if all that has been presented is true including the responses by those who are part of the group, as an outside observer this group serves no legitimate purpose for scouting and is detrimental to the movement as a whole. Either due to the lack of benefit of the group to scouting by design, or implementation and more importantly by the actions and attitudes displayed by the group's members. For those with influence, I would highly suggest BSA take a good hard look at this group and seriously consider some type of intervention. It does not appear to be a positive for scouts in any way shape or form.

[qwazse]

From time to time, I have had to tone down the talk of venturers who had a haughty attitude about their program.

 

So it really does start at the adults. Talk to the ones on the "inside". Because, if this year was worse than usual, they might take the time to fix it,

 

On the other hand if the haughty attitude is a perennial thing like 'rat described, then your son might want to try out a different camp next year. If he's not a lone in the feeling, he might want to do so with his buddy or a whole patrol.

[desertrat77]

A couple of additional thoughts:

 

I attended Bartle for 1 session (10 days?), 1 summer.   So my reflections are about 3 decades old and truly a snap shot in time.

 

My home unit was in another state, serving in the same troop with the friend who nominated me (he was SM, I was an ASM).   We both went Bartle that session as part of the old unit that my friend was member of as a youth.   It was a homecoming for my friend, a first-time event for me.

 

Previously, I'd heard my friend talk about MOS many times over the years, and I was impressed.

 

Once I arrived at Bartle, I saw that MOS was very much part of the fabric of the camp.   Though I was inducted later that session, I had several days to experience what life was like as a non-MOS guy at Bartle, and at times it got on my nerves.   And I have pretty thick skin.

 

That said, the induction was an honor.   Ceremonies were outstanding--better than any I'd seen in the OA, and I was a pretty big proponent of the OA at the time. 

 

The values that MOS teaches are in direct conflict with the us/them attitudes that I experienced.   It's an insular environment.  

 

I rather doubt that HR Bartle, the great scouter that founded MOS, would approve of the unscoutlike attitudes.

[NJCubScouter]

I mean think of it. If you were in say New York and you had your Micosay necklace with all your beads and your painted claws, they wouldnt know its meaning.

That's correct. This forum is the only place I have ever heard of it. On the other hand I once went on a weekend camping trip at the camp where OA was founded. I find OA to be a little overbearing at times but not to the level you are describing.

[Stosh]

The only knowledge I have had of MOS is the section in TroopMaster software where they track MOS "advancement?"   I never read it very closely because it doesn't pertain to anything I was doing or would ever do.  It was strange because TroopMaster didn't have anything about OA except for the dates for Ordeal, Brotherhood and Vigil.

[desertrat77]

The only knowledge I have had of MOS is the section in TroopMaster software where they track MOS "advancement?"   I never read it very closely because it doesn't pertain to anything I was doing or would ever do.  It was strange because TroopMaster didn't have anything about OA except for the dates for Ordeal, Brotherhood and Vigil.

Stosh, there is quite a rank/promotion structure in MOS.   Several tiers, lots of different beads, paint on claw tips, honors, etc. The youth have their track, the adults theirs.   In the adult arena, it is very political and close knit, almost like a fraternal order.

[Stosh]

Stosh, there is quite a rank/promotion structure in MOS.   Several tiers, lots of different beads, paint on claw tips, honors, etc. The youth have their track, the adults theirs.   In the adult arena, it is very political and close knit, almost like a fraternal order.

Sounds like their own little political conclave within the BSA with a strong emphasis on adult participation/recognition.  Really not my gig.

[desertrat77]

Sounds like their own little political conclave within the BSA with a strong emphasis on adult participation/recognition.  Really not my gig.

Stosh, that is a good summation.