Changes to Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills

[Stosh]

What other than breaks, burns, bites, sprains, and cuts are we talking about here?  These are just basic first aid issues.  Oh, it's out in the woods as compared to at the local state park?  The more National over thinks this stuff the less likely the boys are going to go into the woods. 

 

Breaks - splint and transport, unless compound fracture or femur break, bleeding shoudln't be an issue.  If one can't stop the bleeding being 5 miles into the woods or 50 miles into the woods doesn't make one bit of difference.

 

Burns - unless it's a massive burn, not much can be done in the wilderness other than treat and transport.  Life threatening depends on amount of burns, not length of transport.

 

Bites - Epi pens?  Other than that not much can be done.  Snake?  The snake determines the success rate, not the medical personnel.

 

Sprains - not many people die of sprains, but they do need transport.

 

Cuts - severity dictates the necessity for treatment and/or transportation.

 

Heart attack?  - Nobody's going to do CPR for an hour or two while waiting for EMS to arrive.  Cannot transport and do CPR at the same time.

 

As an experienced EMT-A I don't know what some WFA certification is going to accomplish other than in a court of law.  It has no real value in the medical field. 

[qwazse]

For the record, the stuff I got out of IOLS were the "extras" ...

• Experiences from a youth aquatics director. (Prepared me for subsequent years of BSA guard training.)
• Details of the sport from an avid backpacker. Stuff I'd never do, but can tell the scouts "There's this guy in the district who ..."
• Vindication that there is indeed more than one way to taught line hitch.
• At the tag-end of the orienteering session, "Oh, there's this thing called geocaching. ..."
• Friends.

[SSScout]

There is a need for reminding folks of the "Basics", and the need to remind folks who really, really, really want to help that they can help.

 

One fellow attending our IOLS admitted that  1) his son had just joined Scouts (Webelos) and he (the dad) really wanted to encourage him,  2) he had never been a Scout or done anything resembling camping 3) his hiking boots were new last week 4)  the tent ("Can you help me set this thing up? I just got it at a yard sale last month")  was a nice  old style Eureka with the poles on the outside, but IT HAD NO RAIN FLY! ("Oh?  Is that necessary?  I thought you were suppose to enjoy the stars thru that screening".). We loaned him a tarp for the cover. 5) he had never learned to tie  shoes, so the boots were a challenge which we helped with.  (slip ons always) or Velcro closers), string and rope were a new concept to him (!).  6) He was the most involved man there. Questions, hands trying everything.    I am sorry to say he was from a distant district, so I don't know how he faired afterward.

[TAHAWK]

I guess the question boils down to:

 

What does an adult need to know that a boy doesn't?

 

And, does an adult need to learn it in a different way?

Given that adults in Scouting have a nondeligible duty to be the "safety officer," I personally believe we need to know more that a Scout needs to advance through Eagle.  

 

As a old fart, I hope the Scouts know even more than I need to know.

 

 

"Bites - Epi pens?  Other than that not much can be done."  The Wilderness Survival MBP says epi pen than immediately doctor/hospital - in the wilderness.  How long does the epi pen last, Stosh?  Thirty minutes?  Sixty?   In the wilderness.  So oral antihistamines AFTER epi pen? Treat for shock and position to avoid aspirating vomit?

 

 

SSSScout, I have a Eureka with an outside frame and no fly, but it's cotton and never had a fly.  Sort of a stone age Timberline II.  Good puzzle for IOLS classes.

Edited July 11, 2016 by TAHAWK

[MattR]

I don't have a problem with certs that are two years long. A week ago I got to practice my CPR. It's still a shock to see a body in a heap on the side of the road. The skills need to be muscle memory and that only comes from repetition. Personally, I think the first aid MB is a crock. Only the BSA says one and done on CPR for Eagle scouts. The adults have to do it every two years because that's what the Red Cross thinks is right. We can be retested but a scout that got First Aid MB can't be.

[Sentinel947]

Personally, I think the first aid MB is a crock. Only the BSA says one and done on CPR for Eagle scouts. The adults have to do it every two years because that's what the Red Cross thinks is right. We can be retested but a scout that got First Aid MB can't be.

My scouts are always refreshing their skills, regardless of whether it is part of the requirements or not.

[MrBob]

forget it.

Edited July 11, 2016 by MrBob

[TAHAWK]

Influence the PLs and PLC to schedule more applications in patrol and troop program.  

[Stosh]

Given that adults in Scouting have a nondeligible duty to be the "safety officer," I personally believe we need to know more that a Scout needs to advance through Eagle.  

 

As a old fart, I hope the Scouts know even more than I need to know.

 

 

"Bites - Epi pens?  Other than that not much can be done."  The Wilderness Survival MBP says epi pen than immediately doctor/hospital - in the wilderness.  How long does the epi pen last, Stosh?  Thirty minutes?  Sixty?   In the wilderness.  So oral antihistamines AFTER epi pen? Treat for shock and position to avoid aspirating vomit?

 

 

SSSScout, I have a Eureka with an outside frame and no fly, but it's cotton and never had a fly.  Sort of a stone age Timberline II.  Good puzzle for IOLS classes.

 

I'm thinking a single dose lasts 5-20 minute, I know it isn't very long and everyone reacts differently to a measured dose.  A mildly allergic person reacts differently than a severely allergic person.

 

Out in the backwoods, like CPR, it's a Hail Mary effort at best.

[MrBob]

I'm thinking a single dose lasts 5-20 minute, I know it isn't very long and everyone reacts differently to a measured dose.  A mildly allergic person reacts differently than a severely allergic person.

 

Out in the backwoods, like CPR, it's a Hail Mary effort at best.

 

Just put up some cardboard-cutout trees and camp in the hospital lobby, I guess.  That'd be safest, right?

[Stosh]

No, the waiting room of the ER.

 

 

But seriously, safety is the #1 priority.  When it comes to Wilderness First Aid vs. a thorough understanding of First Class First Aid I don't think a major course of unusable information should be mandatory.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Stosh

[TAHAWK]

I was told that B.S.A. didn't develop the WFA course.

[MattR]

Influence the PLs and PLC to schedule more applications in patrol and troop program.  

Influence them? It would be a whole lot easier on everyone to just make a requirement and let the scouts figure out how to meet it. Oh, but wait, we're not allowed to change the requirements or retest. I don't retest, I have my scouts sit down with an ASM that "checks" their skills. Kind of like calling squirt guns water projectile devices.

 

But that would cause another boring, drawn out, 14 page argument on this forum that has already been beaten to death. No thanks. I'd rather go camping.

[Chadamus]

But MattR, those 14 page drawn out threads are my favorite!

@@TAHAWK was it St. John Ambulance Association that originated WFA perhaps?

 

Edited for punctuation.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Chadamus

[Eagle94-A1]

I know some of the specialty outdoor organizations came up with their versions of WFA, But the Red Cross got a foundation for their course from a local chapter in the mountains of NC and the BSA. The standard 16 hour WFA was pretty much standardized by the BSA. National was the ones that got the experts together to come up with the course.

 

 

Interesting thing to me is this: the bulk of what was covered in my WFA class was stuff I learned in First Aid MB back in the day.