Successfully complete your Board of Review for the ### Rank

[NJCubScouter]

I've never had a paper eagle go through any of my programs.  I think if one ever comes my way, I'll just push him along as quickly as I can so he doesn't infect the rest of the troop.

Sounds like more name-calling, like we were talking about in the other thread. Not to mention that you would treat a boy as if he is an infectious disease.

[qwazse]

Sounds like more name-calling, like we were talking about in the other thread. Not to mention that you would treat a boy as if he is an infectious disease.

Oh ... That sounds like a good idea ... Mom comes to demanding we bling out Snowflake in the parlor ... Pull a bell out of your pocket and hand it to her.

Mom: "What's this?"

SM "Just a little icing for your cupcake. Sew it on his sleeve, so hear it on him from a little ways off."

Mom: "why?"

SM "It'll save him having to shout 'Unclean' all day."

Edited July 9, 2016 by qwazse

[qwazse]

This sounds like my nephew.  I am curious, and still trying to understand how things work, are their "social" requirements for rank advancement?  I have been researching things, so I can give my nephew useful advise and encouragement.

 

All the literature I have read showed specific task, or skills, that have to be mastered in order to advance.  I have also read that requirements for rank can neither be added nor taken away.  I did see the requirement for "Position of Responsibility" (POR).  Is this the same thing as you were discussing?  Can a boy who is primarily solitary succeed in scouts? 

 

Scouting is more complicated then I initially thought it would be.

There's a balance. You can see it in the scout law. E.g., friendly, helpful, courteous ... imply some social interaction. Thrifty, brave, clean, reverent, are mor individual challenges. Boys learn to fill in where they are lacking.

Really, a board of review should be more about what the boy has learned in terms of the Oath and Law than about skills and PORs ... all of which are just a mechanism to help the boy live up to the words he says every week.

[DuctTape]

I get what Stosh is saying. It isnt the boy who is infectious, it is the attitude and behavior. This does not necessarily mean a negative. A positive fun loving attitude can be infectious to the entire patrol. This is a good thing. An attitude of complacency and minimalism can also be infectious; not a good thing. It is not wrong, nor unscoutlike to express the fact that boys' attitudes and behaviors do impact those around them. In fact this is exactly why adult association is part of scouting, so our example may infect the scouts as well.

[NJCubScouter]

Qwasze, that's very funny, I said sarcastically.

 

DuctTape, let's keep in mind that Stosh was apparently talking about a hypothetical Scout, so I think we need to be cautious about ascribing details to a nonexistent person. And since the Scout is hypothetical, we are all left free to wonder whether the name-calling by a hypothetical adult leader of this hypothetical Scout is really just a matter of the adult's perception.

[Beavah]

This sounds like my nephew.  I am curious, and still trying to understand how things work, are their "social" requirements for rank advancement?  I have been researching things, so I can give my nephew useful advise and encouragement.

 

All the literature I have read showed specific task, or skills, that have to be mastered in order to advance.  I have also read that requirements for rank can neither be added nor taken away.  I did see the requirement for "Position of Responsibility" (POR).  Is this the same thing as you were discussing?  Can a boy who is primarily solitary succeed in scouts? 

 

Scouting is more complicated then I initially thought it would be.

 

Hiya @@UncleP.   I continue to be impressed by your willingness to be there for your nephew.  Scout Salute! to you.  And keep askin' questions, eh!

 

What we hope to do in Scoutin' is help lads grow.  Advancement Method is what we use for the boys who need a bit of guidance in that growth, eh?  The ones who haven't yet figured out that to do Big Things yeh have to break things up into Small Things.   So when yeh look at Advancement "requirements", what yeh see is a Big Thing like learning how to canoe broken up into a whole bunch of Smaller Things: the requirements for Canoeing Merit Badge.   

 

This is particularly true for da lower ranks of Scout-Tenderfoot-Second Class-First Class (S-T-2-1).  The Big Task of learnin' basic outdoor and citizenship stuff is broken down into a whole bunch of smaller things, like learnin' to pack your gear, or set up a tent, or start a stove or a fire, etc.

 

Of course, as boys get older we expect 'em to start doin' this on their own, eh?  So by the upper ranks of Star-Life-Eagle (S-L-E) we see more broad requirements that aren't necessarily broken up into smaller tasks.  Like serve in a Position of Responsibility (POR) for the troop.  Could be an up-front leadership position like Patrol Leader, could be a behind-the-scenes staff person like Quartermaster.  Lots of times quieter less social kids really excel and make big contributions to the troop in staff positions like Quartermaster or Scribe or Webmaster, eh?  Scouting values that as much as bein' the extrovert up front "leading".  Just as we value such people in real life!

 

Hopefully by Eagle if we're doin' our job well the boys no longer need us to break up Big Tasks into Small Tasks.  They can do it for themselves.  That's what an Eagle service project is designed to show - the boy has to find a need in his community that he cares about, and run the Big Task to serve da need.

 

Now, the one thing to be aware of is that different troops do approach things in different ways, eh?  So some of da specifics will depend on your nephew's troop.  Some "Advancement Focused" (pejoratively called "Eagle Mill") troops put a lot of emphasis on lads just gettin' da requirement boxes checked.   Many of us aren't a fan of that approach, eh?  Mostly because it makes it possible for pushy parents to get their son an award without really learning.   For ordinary kids it can be fine, though, as long as the family adults like yourself push learnin' more than "getting" an award.

 

Yeh see, while da requirements help break the task of learnin' to canoe down to manageable chunks, just doin' the requirements isn't enough to really learn to canoe.   Da requirements are like the test in school.  The test helps measure whether you've learned, but if yeh just teach da answers to the test questions yeh haven't really learned the subject.  In Boy Scouting, takin' the test is da Second Step.  The first step is that the Scout Learns.

 

So some troops will really focus on the goin' canoeing and learnin', and then at some point testing.  I prefer that, eh?  Some troops will focus on the test and "don't add to the requirements" and go straight there.  In that case, you as your nephew's supportive family member really need to help him focus on being able to do stuff, which will always involve things beyond da "requirements", as well as puttin' different requirements together.  The "requirements" can help guide his learnin', but they're not da goal.

 

Beavah

[NJCubScouter]

Beavah, I think you are drawing a distinction that doesn't really exist, or perhaps a better way of saying it is that if the advancement requirements are applied properly, it doesn't have to exist. I just read the requirements for the Canoeing Merit Badge, since that is the example you used, and it seems to me that if you can meet those requirements (particularly # 8 through 12, which are the "demonstrate" requirements), you have learned how to canoe properly. If, for any particular merit badge, that is NOT the case, then the answer is to get the requirements changed. It seems to me that you are suggesting that there is some philosophical distinction between learning the subject matter and passing the requirements, which is not supposed to be the case, and is likely to cause confusion in the mind of someone who is less familiar with the advancement program. The requirements are designed to allow the Scout to demonstrate that he has learned the subject matter. If the Scout is "passed" on the requirements without actually satisfying them, that is a different story. But in that case, the "fault" is not in the requirements, it is in the person signing off on the requirement for the particular Scout.

[Beavah]

Beavah, I think you are drawing a distinction that doesn't really exist, or perhaps a better way of saying it is that if the advancement requirements are applied properly, it doesn't have to exist. I just read the requirements for the Canoeing Merit Badge, since that is the example you used, and it seems to me that if you can meet those requirements (particularly # 8 through 12, which are the "demonstrate" requirements), you have learned how to canoe properly. 

 

Nah.  If yeh just do those requirements yeh have paddled a canoe a total of 100 yards or so.  200 at most.

 

Really learnin' any discipline can't be reduced to a set of enumerated requirements, eh?  Especially not when half of 'em are "discuss" and definitions and such.  It involves developin' skills and when to apply the skills.  It involves learnin' terms, sure, but also how to use the terms.  Yeh have to be able to demonstrate things not just individually, but in combination.  

 

Doin' just the requirements gives yeh static, disconnected "knowledge".   Just like cramming for any test.  Learnin' how to canoe gives yeh practical, dynamic, interconnected knowledge.  It's the difference between memorizing and understandin'; knowin' about vs. being able to do. 

 

Yeh can "pass" da BSA Canoe MB requirements and still be a danger to yourself and others on the water.  Seen it lots of times .That ain't a fault of the requirements necessarily; the requirements aren't a bad test (though all of our requirements become pretty lame if yeh take a really aggressive "no adding" stance).   It's just that doin' or passin' a test ain't the same thing as learning, as any student anywhere can tell yeh. 

 

I reckon that's where I fault da modern G2A.  It's not so bad, except that it so emphasizes regulatory sorts of stuff that most of our adults newer to Scoutin' haven't learned how Advancement Method is really supposed to work to achieve our Aims, eh?

 

Beavah

[MrBob]

Nah.  If yeh just do those requirements yeh have paddled a canoe a total of 100 yards or so.  200 at most.

 

Really learnin' any discipline can't be reduced to a set of enumerated requirements, eh?  Especially not when half of 'em are "discuss" and definitions and such.  It involves developin' skills and when to apply the skills.  It involves learnin' terms, sure, but also how to use the terms.  Yeh have to be able to demonstrate things not just individually, but in combination.  

 

Doin' just the requirements gives yeh static, disconnected "knowledge".   Just like cramming for any test.  Learnin' how to canoe gives yeh practical, dynamic, interconnected knowledge.  It's the difference between memorizing and understandin'; knowin' about vs. being able to do. 

 

Yeh can "pass" da BSA Canoe MB requirements and still be a danger to yourself and others on the water.  Seen it lots of times .That ain't a fault of the requirements necessarily; the requirements aren't a bad test (though all of our requirements become pretty lame if yeh take a really aggressive "no adding" stance).   It's just that doin' or passin' a test ain't the same thing as learning, as any student anywhere can tell yeh. 

 

I reckon that's where I fault da modern G2A.  It's not so bad, except that it so emphasizes regulatory sorts of stuff that most of our adults newer to Scoutin' haven't learned how Advancement Method is really supposed to work to achieve our Aims, eh?

 

Beavah

 

Its a merit badge, not a Master's degree.  However, perhaps an added "paddle trip" requirement a'la the camping merit badge's "Take a nonmotorized trip on the water of at least four hours or 5 miles."  could be suggested to the national advancement committee.  The last requirement being a "using what you've learned so far, take an overnight canoe trip of at least X miles with your troop or patrol" sort of thing.

[TAHAWK]

BSA once taught that application is the true method for learning. However, that was not taught as a contrast with passing requirements when "the Scout is tested."

[Stosh]

Maybe the reason BSA doesn't allow any retesting at the BOR is because 95% of the boys wouldn't make it through.  Once and done is the norm here, people!

[UncleP]

I want to thank everyone for replying to my question.  I have learned a number of things:

 

1.  I will never be able to completely internalize the way scouting works, it is just too different from my own life experiences.  It's like the old Marx bother's joke - "Are you going to believe me or your lying eyes".   I am just too much of a loner, and too used to living in my own world.

 

2.  It is not necessary that I understand, because my nephew is the one doing things. 

 

I think I need to do the following (in order of importance):

 

a.  Have confidence in him and let him try and fail and succeed on his own,

b.  Give me emotional and spiritual support, so that he will stay in scouting long enough to get the benefit from the program, and

c.  Help him with his expenses, so his parents (with 900 cable tv channels) will not make his life miserable about "all that money".

 

My hope is that the experiences will make my nephew "more normal".  By that I mean give him a few good memories, make him happier, and able to function in the world.

 

I know he can do it - he is smart, has an incredible talent for hard work, and a good soul.

 

Thanks again

[Beavah]

Its a merit badge, not a Master's degree. 

 

Yah, a Master's degree requires 4-5 years of undergraduate education plus another 2-3 years, eh?  Silly to compare learnin' to canoe to that.

 

Still, a lad with Canoein' Merit Badge should be able to really canoe.   Otherwise there's no Merit in the Badge.  It's a cloth patch yeh get from lazy adults who couldn't be bothered to really teach yeh how to canoe.

 

Learnin' to canoe is fun!  It takes a few days out, and some practice.  Lots of activity!   That's Scouting.

 

Bein' taught to a test ain't fun.  Lots of sittin' around.  

 

Choose Scouting!

 

Beavah

[Tampa Turtle]

We view the Canoeing MB as a good pre-requisite to a long canoeing campout. Only then are they ready to start learning by doing. The adult logistics on getting the canoes out there seems to be the hard part for us.

 

As for the cost of scouting while not cheap it costs significantly less than a lot of youth activities--football, marching band, etc. At least in the Turtle household analysis. 

[Beavah]

We view the Canoeing MB as a good pre-requisite to a long canoeing campout. Only then are they ready to start learning by doing. 

 

Yah, hmmmm...

 

I reckon that's one of da saddest things I've ever read on a Scoutin' site.

 

Can I suggest yeh at least try the real program, and turn that around?  Start with Step 1: A Scout Learns by doing!   I think you'll find it's a lot more fun for the boys, it makes da badges more meaningful, and yeh get better results in terms of character, fitness, and citizenship.  Not to mention retention and growth.

 

Beavah