Successfully complete your Board of Review for the ### Rank

[Stosh]

Every camp I've attended teach S->FC but sign off on nothing.  The reports the camp give at the end of the week indicate the training the boy got, but the testing and signing off is NOT done by the camp staff.  Basically all it means is Little Johnny was present when the training was held.

[Eagle94-A1]

I've been to 1 camp where if the Scout brought the book AND was able to do the skill, the director would sign the book. Director was a crusty retired Marine, who was firm, but fair.

 

This incident was one of the reasons Gunship and I had a "discussion" mentioned in the other thread. While I do not think the Scout deserves the rank, the BOR passed him off, and it is a done deal that we can do nothing about. We cannot withhold it from him, revoke it, etc as some would like.  Worse part is that he is now gone, and there is nothing we can do to get him up to speed.

[blw2]

@@BamBam is correct, the SM wasn't doing his/her job.  He's responsible for the boys and their advancement.  If they are not following the procedure correctly, it needs to be corrected long before it gets to the BOR.  How does one get all the way to FC without someone noticing that mom is still in Cub Scout mode?  Not the kid's fault!

 

 

I suspect that this is a common thing.

& relating to the other current thread, about boards of review...

I see a direct relationship boiling down to lack of or poor training

 

From what i can tell, no clear guidelines or training really happens (or exists?) regarding both of these topics.

what EXACTLY is the goal of the _____ (handbook sign off evolution / SM review / board of review)

what is tested during the _____

What is considered re-testing during ______, and when is that off limits

etc....

so, a lot of grey area leads to a lot of folks stumbling around trying to do their best, with some being over zealous and others not zealous enough....

[Stosh]

Having a formal format/training for BOR's might be a bit overkill.  I think the intent of the process is to have a "chat" with the boy, congratulate him on his accomplishment, listen to his concerns and celebrate with him his future success in scouting.  What I hear on the forum as to how many of these BOR's are run, it is no wonder to me why the adults are having problems with it.  Advancement is a huge process in the BSA, the BOR is a small part of it marking the milestones in the boy's scouting career.  Nothing more, nothing less.  He didn't earn the rank but is at the BOR?  Someone screwed up along the way.  Fix it and then come back when we have something to be excited about. i.e. finished the rank and looking forward to the next.  Nothing takes the steam out of that faster than some adults not functioning properly along the way, i.e. the boys were not sufficiently trained, not signed off improperly, etc.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Stosh

[Eagle94-A1]

One of the challenges in the unit is that the CC/COR does things his way, and that has led to some things I do not like or approve regarding BORs. And it's permeated downward to other committee members. Apparently the troop has done multiple Scouts in one BOR for a long time, and everyone on the committee wants to keep it that way "to save time, otherwise we will be here all night." Trying to do the BOR by the book was another "challenge" I had with Gunship last month.

[Stosh]

Never heard of multiple scouts in a BOR at the same time.  Obviously the time of the board members is more important than the boys.  In order to facilitate this process, why not have 1 trained MC and 2 parents for each scout.  They could do 3-4 of them all at the same time and each boy gets his own POR.  This is simple math, not rocket science.

[SSScout]

""Apparently the troop has done multiple Scouts in one BOR for a long time, and everyone on the committee wants to keep it that way "to save time, otherwise we will be here all night." "

Multiple Scouts?   How is that showing the Scout he (singular) is important?   How many times have you seen  among siblings, at home, in a movie,  "you love him better than me"  because of the better attention shown to one brother over another, which leads to..... 

 

If the Scout is the object of review, why not all night?   Each Scout , at some time, deserves the undivided attention of the parent, the Scoutmaster, the Board of Review.   Why should it be otherwise?   If nothing else, The Golden Rule requires it. 

[blw2]

Having a formal format/training for BOR's might be a bit overkill.  I think the intent of the process is to have a "chat" with the boy, congratulate him on his accomplishment, listen to his concerns and celebrate with him his future success in scouting.  What I hear on the forum as to how many of these BOR's are run, it is no wonder to me why the adults are having problems with it.  Advancement is a huge process in the BSA, the BOR is a small part of it marking the milestones in the boy's scouting career.  Nothing more, nothing less.  He didn't earn the rank but is at the BOR?  Someone screwed up along the way.  Fix it and then come back when we have something to be excited about. i.e. finished the rank and looking forward to the next.  Nothing takes the steam out of that faster than some adults not functioning properly along the way, i.e. the boys were not sufficiently trained, not signed off improperly, etc.

 I didn't mean to say formal training on just that....

just to say that overall i think it's not made clear to the "average" scouter...... the ones that barely just sit through the online training that is "required"

I'll bet all the others on our committee as an example, more or less get the gist of what you said there, in one sentence....(what you think the intent is)

but they also would add on several other sentences... including, or stepping over the line at least into what most of us would call re-testing.

They focus on the idea of getting the scout ready for job interviews, stuff like that.....

all of which may be part of the idea....

but my bigger point is, why doesn't the BSA make this simple concept crystal clear to everyone

not a training course.... just a slide or two

Lord knows most of these folks won't read that new two volume leader book cover to cover.... (or at all)

[Stosh]

@@blw2

 

We're pretty much on the same page, but with all the emphasis on rank advancement as the primary focus of Boy Scouts today, one feels justified in turning it into a job interview inquisition.  So one didn't learn the double half hitch.  Big deal, some rainy Friday night and it's dark and your patrol is putting up the dining fly, he's going to finally figure why the double half hitch is important.  First wind storm he's going to realize the importance of the taunt line.  First trip to BWCA or Philmont will convince him that compass and map aren't just something one plays with back home at a meeting.  And having seen it many times in my life, standing there watching a loved one die of a heart attack is not the time to realize that C.P.R. is not just a check box and initials in one's long lost ScoutBook.

 

The best example I have is my young scouts put up their summer camp tents and relied on the pieces of wood with two holes in them to tighten up their wall tents and dining flies.  Second night out, big thunderstorm rolls through, tents went down all over the place, gear got wet, boys looked like drowned rats the next morning.  They came over to my area and asked for help.  They told me ALL the tents and flies had gone down in the storm.  I corrected them when I pointed out the adult tents and flies were up and doing their job.  All the gear was nice and dry.  I then proceeded to show them all the double half hitches and taunt lines instead of the stupid wooden blocks.  I then offered to come over and teach the boys how to tie the two knots.  The acting SPL, smiled and said, he'd handle it.  Before any of the tents went back up there was an extensive training program on knots in each patrol by the SPL and PL's.  Didn't need to worry about any check boxes, BOR dynamics or Scout proficiency.  Mother Nature took care of everything.  Failure is the best teacher on the planet!

 

This stuff doesn't need to be over thought.  Time will correct their shortcomings.

[Beavah]

 He didn't earn the rank but is at the BOR?  Someone screwed up along the way. 

 

Nah, this is exactly da wrong way to think about a BOR.

 

Boards of Review shouldn't happen just when a lad is advancing.   They should be happening regularly, whether a lad is ready to advance or not.  It's part of an ongoing conversation with the scout.   It's part of how we keep boys from fallin' through the cracks.  

 

Sometimes a board might be about advancement, sometimes it might be about participation, sometimes it might be about the character the lad showed at the most recent set of fundraisers.   Sometimes a board says "congratulations", sometimes "you're doin' great, keep working on it", sometimes "yah, yeh seem to be stuck... how can we help?".

 

That's why a boy never "fails" a Board of Review.  Not because he gets a rank every time he has a review, but because yeh can't "fail" an ongoing conversation.  That ongoin' conversation can also reveal where a boy might not really have learned a skill, where he still has an opportunity to go work on it some more.

 

I've never seen or heard of multiple scouts at one BOR.  Da problem I have with it is that sometimes that conversation needs to be personal in nature.  At other times, havin' other boys (especially PLs) involved in da conversation can be a good thing.  It shouldn't be done for the ease of the Committee, though.  It should be done because they feel it offers somethin' to the lads.   I might see, for example, that it would put a shy or nervous boy more at his ease to have a buddy along.

 

Beavah

[MrBob]

Beavah - then don't you think the "powers that be" should change the wording of the requirement to "While a ### Scout, actively participate in a Board of Review" instead of "Successfully complete..."?

 

If a Boy can't ever actually fail, then success is a given, and that requirement is just something to pencil-whip away, no?

[blw2]

ok, so here's an example of what I was getting at

the re-test...... and what this whole BOR thing is anyway.

In this discussion, we're saying it's a conversation, and so on....

 

I did a quick search hoping to be able to quote chapter and verse

found this

http://scoutingmagazine.org/2008/11/this-is-not-a-test/

 

 

so from that reference,

According to The Scoutmaster Handbook, the purpose of the board of review is “not to retest a Scout, but rather to ensure that he has completed all of the requirements, to determine the quality of his troop experience, and to encourage him to advance toward the next rank. Each review should also include a discussion of ways in which the Scout sees himself living up to the Scout Oath and Law in his everyday life.â€

 

So this is the TRAINING & GUIDANCE we get?

if the purpose is NOT to re-test, how is it then that we are to ensure that he completed his requirements?

If we don't re-test, then what can we do to that end?  

We can ensure that he has the required sign offs.  A document check.

The article goes on to elaborate on that, but that's really it boiled down, isn't it?

[andysmom]

ok, so here's an example of what I was getting at

the re-test...... and what this whole BOR thing is anyway.

In this discussion, we're saying it's a conversation, and so on....

 

I did a quick search hoping to be able to quote chapter and verse

found this

http://scoutingmagazine.org/2008/11/this-is-not-a-test/

 

 

so from that reference,

According to The Scoutmaster Handbook, the purpose of the board of review is “not to retest a Scout, but rather to ensure that he has completed all of the requirements, to determine the quality of his troop experience, and to encourage him to advance toward the next rank. Each review should also include a discussion of ways in which the Scout sees himself living up to the Scout Oath and Law in his everyday life.â€

 

So this is the TRAINING & GUIDANCE we get?

if the purpose is NOT to re-test, how is it then that we are to ensure that he completed his requirements?

If we don't re-test, then what can we do to that end?  

We can ensure that he has the required sign offs.  A document check.

The article goes on to elaborate on that, but that's really it boiled down, isn't it?

 

We can pretty much figure out if a scout has completed the requirements just by talking to him about them.  "Johnny, you had to fix a meal for your patrol on a campout, what did you make?  How was it?  Was there anything you should have done differently?" , "who did you teach the square knot to?", "was it easy for them?", "if I asked them to tie it right now, do you think they could?".  None of those questions would qualify as a retest, but they do let us know that the scout completed the requirements.  The committee has to trust that when a requirement is signed off that the scout has mastered the skill, if there is concern in that area it must be taken up with "program", the Scoutmaster.  That is not the job of the committee.

 

We speak to the boys about what they enjoy about scouting and the troop and what we can do better.  We talk about bullying and about who his friends are in the troop, about his patrol and is patrol leader.  We want to be sure the troop is functioning as it should be.  We talk to him about school and home and ask him if scouting and the oath and law has helped him with any challenges he has faced in those area to see that he is living by the oath and law.

 

Personally, unless a scout has been found to have broken the law or some other serious infraction, I do not think that they should be held from advancing.  The committee is not the "gatekeeper" to rank.  Anything that should keep a scout from advancing to the next rank should have been taken care of by the time they get to the board of review.

Edited July 6, 2016 by andysmom

[qwazse]

ok, so here's an example of what I was getting at

the re-test...... and what this whole BOR thing is anyway.

In this discussion, we're saying it's a conversation, and so on....

... if the purpose is NOT to re-test, how is it then that we are to ensure that he completed his requirements?...

Let's put it this way. If it is a re-test, are you having the BoR in a swimming pool? May the scout light a fire in your meeting place? Is he first blindfolded, dropped off five miles away with map and compass, and required to hike to the BoR location?

Assuming that your BoR location doesn't have the facilities to randomly test any of the skills accorded to a 1st class scout, what makes you so sure your "re-test" will provide an unbiased evaluation of the metal of the man?

 

The best way to find out if a scout has the skills: ASK HIM, "CAN YOU ACTUALLY DO THE STUFF LISTED ON THIS PAGE?"

[NJCubScouter]

The CC sortof coached the boy to stand front and center, stand up straight, etc....

and asked him to recite the law, the oath, the outdoor code

and then the adults barraged the scout with a mix of questions while he stood at "attention"...

This would not fly in the troop I serve. The Scout is asked to stand, give the Scout sign and recite the Oath and Law, and then is asked to be seated. No questions are asked until the boy is seated. If he seems nervous we try to put him at ease and tell him we are really there just to have a conversation.

 

The recitation of the Oath and Law is not pass-fail, by the way. They do the best they can, and it seems like the ones who know these things cold, if you wake them up in the middle of the night they can recite the Oath and Law with no problem, suddenly at their Life BOR the whole thing seems to fly out of their head. It's almost comical in a way. Sort of like I will occasionally blank out in the middle of the Pledge of Allegiance, which I have only been reciting since kindergarten, in the early 1960's.