Not an Eagle

[Bingo]

  This is the first time I have posted here but I need some guidance.

I have a Scout that came to my troop about 2 years ago complaining his old Scout master wasn't being fair to him and was picking on him.(about 16 yrs old).

   He seemed to be a nice kid with a dominant mother. We greeted him into the troop and got to know him a bit. It seemed to me that he needed a confidence builder. The boys decided on a trip to Wright Patterson AFB for our June trip last year. I put this kid in charge of setting it up. He/ his mom did a great job. That is the last trip he has attended.

   I have approached him every time I saw him about his Eagle project and coming to more meetings. The Scout master has done the same. In that time he mentioned a painting project for the church he goes to. A month ago, he wanted to meet with the committee and present his Eagle project proposal. 

He had no paper work, no plans, just an idea.

   The plan he has requires a lot of cabinet grade wood working and permission for the School to install them. I don't see anyone in our troop with those skills and as school is out for the summer I don't see him getting school board approval before September. He turns 18 in December and I don't think his project is doable by then. he also wants the committee to meet with him when HIS band schedule permits.

   In addition, he has done nothing to help or lead the troop or the other Scouts. I don't think he has made 1/3 of the meetings and hasn't come to any of the outings including two Eagle projects. I know nothing of his outdoor skills and doubt if he could recite the Outdoor Code.

   Even if this kid manages to pull off the project he selected, I can not in good conscience pass him for Eagle.

    Now the problem. The committee passed a few e-mails around that were understood to be private. I've made my feeling known and there is a lady or two in the troop that don't agree with me. Those e-mails aren't private anymore. So i guess I'm going to get accused of being mean. I guess outdoor skills and leadership don't weigh in on their idea of what an Eagle should be. They think as long as he has the merit badges and does the project he should be able to get the rank and honor.    

   I don't. In my eyes Eagle should stand for a  lot more than that.

 The kid hasn't shown leadership, that's easy. But how do I convince the women that knowledge of the Scout Hand book and outdoor skills are essential to meeting the Requirements of Eagle. Their attitude is he learned that stuff once (when he was 1st. Class) he doesn't have to be tested on it again.

   

  

 

[JosephMD]

I'm not sure what your role is in the process.

Has the scout completed all of the requirements?  Your focus seemed to be on the project.  Was it approved by your council or district?

 

You also mentioned leadership, has he completed requirement 4?  

 

As for outdoor skills, if he has completed the required merit badges, there really is no room for judgement.  I don't like it, but the requirements are the requirements. 

 

Take some time to read the guide to advancement, again if you have already done so.  When I run into situations where a scout doesn't meet my idea of what a First Class, ... Life, Eagle, scout should know and be, I just have to remember, it isn't up to me to set the standards, the standards are already set. 

[NJCubScouter]

This is a subject that has been discussed many times in this forum, and you are likely to get a variety of opinions.

 

For me, the question is, has he passed the requirements? (Other than the project.) For example, you say he has not shown leadership. Has he held a position of responsibility in the troop (which could mean his old troop) for at least 6 months since becoming a Life Scout?

 

As for outdoor skills, I am inferring that he made it to at least First Class with his old troop. You can't un-pass him for those ranks and I don't think you can hold the fact that he has forgotten most of his outdoor skills, or perhaps never really knew them, against him when he is applying for Eagle.

 

There are some in this forum who will disagree with me, but the BSA has prescribed the requirements and the Guide to Advancement tells us how to apply them, which really boils down to, the requirements are the requirements, and you cannot require more.

 

Of course, it would be great if every Scout would do more than the bare minimum. But if they pass the requirements for each rank, including Eagle, they get the rank.

 

By the way, what is your position in the troop?

 

(It looks like my post and JosephMD's "crossed in the mail", but we seem to be pretty much in agreement.)

Edited July 2, 2016 by NJCubScouter

[jjlash]

Welcome to the group Bingo.  My first question is - what is your role in the Troop?

 

The ladies are correct with regard to the outdoor skills - if he has earned the merit badges then his outdoor skills are not in question.  Please  review the guide to advancement for the four steps of advancement: A Scout Learns, A Scout is tested, A Scout is reviewed, A Scout is recognized.  Yes, it would be great if they all learned and retained every skill they learned in the early ranks - but that is not the important part of Scouting.

 

As for the project - it sounds like you are making a judgement on the feasibility of completing the project in time rather than the leadership potential of the project.  If I were Committee Chair, I would talk to the Scout about how the project will let him show leadership and would discuss how tight the schedule will be.  In the end if the project is suitable I would encourage him to get the paperwork done quickly so he can really start the planning.  

 

And if he doesnt get the project done in time....I think will have learned more by failing to complete a project he chose (something that he cares about) than by completing a project that someone else thinks he can get done in time.

[David CO]

Are you sure the school board doesn't meet during the summer?  I was on a school board, and we never took off for the summer.  We had tons of work to do in the summer.

 

Most of our building and remodeling, equipment and supply purchases, interviewing and hiring teachers,  transportation contracts and bus route changes, ...all take place in the summer.

 

Besides that, I'm guessing that an administrator would have the authority to have some cabinets installed.  If the cabinets are donated, and there is no expense to the school/church, board action might not even be necessary.

 

If this boy's family happened to be in the cabinet business, and he grew up in the family business, and he wanted to make new cabinets for my Science classroom or Athletic Department, I'd accept the offer in a heartbeat.

Edited July 2, 2016 by David CO

[qwazse]

Welcome! So, you have a scout who wants to do a service project?

Help him!

How hard can this be?

 

Or, do you think that because someone might not pass muster on a board of review, they should quit before even starting?

 

I would suggest that your first problem is that there is a whole committee reviewing his proposal. Remove superfluous adults from the mix. Get him a project advisor if the scoutmaster is too busy. Someone who knows a thing or two about cabinetry and fine woodworking. Show him the paperwork.

 

Step ... Away .. And ... See .... If .. He'll step up.

Edited July 2, 2016 by qwazse

[David CO]

I noticed that the OP states that the boy is in the Band.  Are these cabinets for the Band room?  Sounds like a great project to me.

 

Consider this.  How will the school/church feel about your scout program if you nix this project?

Edited July 2, 2016 by David CO

[Oldscout448]

I'm a little confused here is it a question of the feasibility of the project or a question of the scout not being active in your troop or a question of not having a leadership position? the one thing I do find troubling as the scouts priorities if he only has 5 months until he ages outhe really needs to drop pretty much everything else and get on the ball

[Beavah]

Hiya @@Bingo, welcome to da Forums, eh!

 

What yeh describe is sadly not that uncommon.  Generally speakin', other Scoutmasters don't "pick on" kids, especially not 16 year olds who have been in their troop for years.  Odds are that they are just expressin' high expectations for the boy, and he (or his family) is resisting.   

 

In the future as a CC, I recommend that yeh drop boys who are not participating actively in your troop from the roster at recharter time.  Boys can always opt to come back, but that requires a Scoutmaster conference and approval of a new application, with some expectations clearly laid out.   It also makes expectations of membership clear without any ties to advancement.  I'd also take an application from an older scout transfer as an application, eh?  Yeh don't need to accept it, and should at least make inquiries and have a solid SM Conference about expectations.

 

In terms of the current lad, I think you as Committee Chair should not be takin' a stand at all at this point.   Your job is to be the chair, eh?  To be fair and impartial.   The emails are unfortunate and you should walk 'em back by apologizing for them.

 

Goin' forward, there are several decision points, eh?

 

The boy's plan will have to be approved.  If the plan has some serious concerns, then that's the right spot to deal with it, in terms of not approving the plan (but also trying to help the boy with ideas and suggestions).

 

The boy will need to get people to work his Eagle project.  If he hasn't been attending the troop's functions and he hasn't helped out on anyone else's Eagle project, then he might find that he finds it hard to get people to work his.   Them's the breaks, eh?  You and da SM should not bail him out, and yeh should make sure his parent doesn't bail him out.  Yeh might even quietly talk to the SPL/PLC and let 'em know that they don't have an obligation to bail the boy out, either.

 

The boy will have to do the work and the paperwork.   He can request that you meet on nights that are convenient to him, but that's a request eh?  He can request two adults from the troop (includin' one who has to be a registered adult over 21) to attend his work sessions, but that's a request as well, eh?   Ultimately it's up to you and the Scoutmaster and your own schedules and willingness.   I wouldn't sabotage the lad, but I wouldn't give him any special treatment or breaks, either.  The Scoutmaster and the beneficiary have to sign off on his project completion, and may choose not to.

 

The boy will need to meet all da requirements for Eagle.  It's unclear whether he has a POR requirement completed in his old troop, but yeh should check on that, eh?  Sometimes book signatures mysteriously appear for transfer scouts.     He needs to meet Scout Spirit.   Da Scoutmaster has to sign off on these things, and can choose not to.   You as Committee Chair have to sign off on his application as well, on behalf of the unit committee.  You and the committee can choose not to.   

 

And, if yeh conduct Eagle BORs at the unit level, yeh can have your committee members have a direct say in da final decision.  

 

Yeh seem to be taking a principled stand, but I'd encourage yeh to reserve judgment at this point.  Let it play out.  Odds are a boy like this won't make it without special treatment or his parent(s) doin' it all.  If yeh can avoid those two things, you'll either get the outcome you expect or yeh may be re-evaluating what you think of the boy.     Be open to that.

 

Good luck with it and keep us posted.

 

Beavah

Edited July 2, 2016 by Beavah

[Beavah]

 

Consider this.  How will the school/church feel about your scout program if you nix this project?

 

I reckon what @@Bingo is worried about is how the school/church will feel about their scout program if the lad doesn't follow through on the project, like he hasn't followed through on his Scoutin' life the past two years.   Failed projects can be good (hard!) lessons for the boys, but they can also be really damaging to the community's view of Scouting.  

 

 

The ladies are correct with regard to the outdoor skills - if he has earned the merit badges then his outdoor skills are not in question.  Please  review the guide to advancement for the four steps of advancement: A Scout Learns, A Scout is tested, A Scout is reviewed, A Scout is recognized.  

 

Yah, hmmm...  

 

I've always been of the mind that A Scout Learns means that he really learns, eh?  Not that he crams for some artificial test.   A boy who has really learned how to ride a bike can ride a bike years later, eh?  Same with swimming, same with cooking, same with navigating.   If yeh have really learned somethin', "retention" isn't an issue until decades later when brain cell start to die off as yeh grow old and feeble. 

 

After all, we celebrate boys who are able to use their First Aid or rescue skills years later to help a victim or save a life, right?   We teach 'em Personal Management because we want 'em to use those skills for life, right?

 

More importantly, we want boys to develop habits of the heart, eh?  Not so much that they didn't lie, cheat, or steal in da 4 months they were working on Star, but that in the 4 months they were working on Star they demonstrated the personal character and commitment to always work against lying, cheating, or stealing.  There's no "one and done" when it comes to real character.

 

Back in the olden days, Baden Powell said that a boy who couldn't perform his skills on demand should surrender his badge.  It is this notion of a personal duty to maintain skills and proficiency and honor that led to the statement "Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle!" in the U.S.  It doesn't mean that once you get the patch you can call yourself an Eagle Scout for life; it means that in getting the badge yeh have accepted the duty to maintain your skills and honor and da Oath and Law for life.  

 

Granted, da failure is more on the troop program for signing a lad off who has not truly learned or become proficient, so it's best in these cases to fix the program rather than fix the boy, especially late in the game.   I reckon we also have some duty to the boy, though... and some responsibility for da example we allow to be set for other boys and what we hold out to the broader community as our brightest and our best, eh?

 

After all, if a lad gets accepted to college because of having Eagle Scout on his resume, that means someone else didn't  get accepted to college.   If we're not bein' honest about a boy's skills and character, then that's on us, eh?

 

Beavah

[jjlash]

Yah, hmmm...  

 

I've always been of the mind that A Scout Learns means that he really learns, eh?  Not that he crams for some artificial test.   A boy who has really learned how to ride a bike can ride a bike years later, eh?  Same with swimming, same with cooking, same with navigating.   If yeh have really learned somethin', "retention" isn't an issue until decades later when brain cell start to die off as yeh grow old and feeble. 

 

I completely agree.... But - the time to confirm that learning is before the requirement is signed off, not months/years later at his Eagle SM conference or BOR.  

 

In a case like this where the requirements were signed by the previous Troop and the lack of retention is discovered later, there is not much to be done about it.  The guide to advancement is pretty clear on not retesting and not taking away what has been earned.  If the Scout had been more active, this shortcoming could have been noticed and opportunities to review/practice could have been worked in (i.e. by having him teach some newer Scouts) without specifically retesting and without it being tied to advancement.  Some of this may still be possible by having a conversation about participation in his time remaining.

Edited July 2, 2016 by jjlash

[Beavah]

If the Scout had been more active, this shortcoming could have been noticed and opportunities to review/practice could have been worked in (i.e. by having him teach some newer Scouts) without specifically retesting and without it being tied to advancement.  Some of this may still be possible by having a conversation about participation in his time remaining.

 

Yah, I agree @jilash.  I reckon this is da real issue @@Bingo is dealin' with.  Their troop doesn't like the outcome, and they're disappointed with where the other troop left the lad, and they haven't seen enough of him to be able to work their own scouting magic on the boy.

 

They're caught in da trap where what's really best for the boy, and what's the best example for the rest of the boys in their program, and what's best for Scouting may all be a grey zone on da line of what's allowable in G2A.

 

This is the trap da National Advancement Team has created with the modern G2A.   In tryin' to reduce their own appeals workload they created an overly regulatory approach too far from what real Scouting is and has been for 100 years.   In da process of imagining "bad" unit leaders, they ignore da fact that the most common problem is kids and parents who want to "work the system" to get the award without ever learnin' our lessons of character, fitness, and citizenship. They're so remote from da field that they don't recognize that the "bad" unit leaders and camps are the ones who are givin' away the awards when the lads haven't really learned, robbing all of Scouting of the value of the Advancement Method.

 

That's why I reckon @@Bingo is better just to let things take their course.   If the boy had been participating well in the troop, he'd have learned skills to allow him to plan a project, and communicate with others, and he'd have friends and fellow scouts to draw on as workers, and he'd have adults who saw his commitment and were willing to go out of their way for him in return.  He chose not to, so the proper lesson for the boy is to feel that, eh?  @@Bingo shouldn't put up road blocks for the boy, but he should let the boy experience the full freight of the road blocks he's chosen to put up for himself.

 

I reckon he should also check with da other troop, eh?  In far too many of these cases that I've seen, the other troop was surprised by what they had supposedly "signed off". 

 

Beavah

Edited July 3, 2016 by Beavah

[qwazse]

I halfway agree with @@Beavah in letting natural consequences play out.

 

But a good advisor should be frank with the boy and let him know the challenges he faces. In this case:

- he hasn't been tight with the new troop (and, if it's true, maybe they've all racked up service hours) so he might have to cast a broader net - maybe the band mates - for help.

- it's an ambitious project, he will need to manage volunteers with real skills. An advisor with experience sub-contract might explain to him what that's really like.

- Boy Scouts love paperwork. So, no matter how solid his plan is in his head it has to be spelled out in the workbook. And there is an expectation that workbooks from 17 year olds reflect the years of education he should have had. (I.e., articulate, no spelling errors, attention to detail).

- Mamma's gotta step back from this one. If there's a whiff that her hand is at the tiller, the SM won't sign.

 

Then, if he's up for the challenge, go to the mat for him. With some boys, you get the quality time while camping. With others, while they are learning to run meetings and such. With this one, it looks like it's gonna be the service project or bust.

[Bingo]

    I've been in Scouting for about 15 years. I've helped a lot of Scouts get to the rank of Eagle. Unfortunately, one of them posthumously. The young man that attains the rank of Eagle should stand out a a leader and a man of character. 

   This kids lack of attendance at meetings and Outings shows a lack of commitment to the Troop and a lack of interest in Scouting in general.

   Twice he has had a POR and did nothing in those positions. In his old troop, the boys wanted him removed. That is when he came to our Troop. We didn't know any of this until 4 months ago.

    I have tried to work with this kid to get him involved and moving. Originally, his project was to do some painting for his church. I used to be a painter and offered my assistance and expertise. It wasn't until last month when he showed up wanting a meeting with the committee and for us to approve his Eagle project. That is when I got irritated. The project that he has talked about for a year and a half was changed. He had no paperwork, Nothing from his beneficiary or the school, no plans for the trophy cases. But we got a nasty response from mommy when we told him what was required of him. SHE now wants us to rearrange our schedules to meet with him when he doesn't have band practice.

   It just seems to me that Eagle is becoming a participation trophy or in this case a lack of participation trophy.

   Oh, to clear up one more thing. I am the outdoors activity coordinator on the committee. I wear 4 Mentor pins and the boys and I have a lot of fun together. It may not show in this post, but I am a sixty year old nut that likes to have fun! In 15 years this is only the second time I thought a Scout did not diverse to become an Eagle. I know it looks good on a resume, but it needs to mean something.

   

  

[MrBob]

Ask "mommy" which is more important to her - that her son not miss a band practice, or that her son earns Eagle?  He's liable to miss a whole bunch of band practice to pull off his Eagle project.  Is she aware of that?

 

 

 

It also sounds like he hasn't successfully completed his tenure in a position of responsibility.  Does he have sufficient time left to do so?

Edited July 3, 2016 by MrBob