Excluding the unchurched

[Oldscout448]

It just took a bit over four centuries

[SSScout]

The original post asked about a particular CO and the requirements they had set for their Scout Units.  They are within their rights to do that.  I have known at least one CO that  famously refused (politely) a Scout applicant because they were not of "their" faith, and referred them to the Assistant District Commissioner who had assisted in their chartering (me).   I referred the boy to another local Troop, everyone is happy.

[TAHAWK]

Nonsense, boys join Scouts because they are looking for God, not Adventure. Just look at all the BSA marketing materials. Revivals, pastors with their arms over the boys shoulder huddled in a corner to be born again, prayer groups, throngs of teens shouting WWJD. That's the Promise of Scouting. Boys hate adventure, have always hated adventure and will hate adventure until the end of time.

Boys join Scout to have fun with friends.

 

Having "caught" the boys, Scouting tries to make them better people and  better citizens who are sound in mind and body.

 

If our only goal is to enable them to have fun, we are vastly overthinking the program.

[TAHAWK]

Wow, Luther, just pound those 95 theses!

Before anyone rants at the absurd context, the policy as described in by the other thread is to suspend service projects for a few months. Poor little 8th grader if he's taken two years to advance to Scout and can't take the heat because he has to wait until the end of the term.

Please.  I know it's hard.  Can we stick to this subject?

 

Or not if you can't.

[TAHAWK]

The original post asked about a particular CO and the requirements they had set for their Scout Units.  They are within their rights to do that.  I have known at least one CO that  famously refused (politely) a Scout applicant because they were not of "their" faith, and referred them to the Assistant District Commissioner who had assisted in their chartering (me).   I referred the boy to another local Troop, everyone is happy.

The original post asked about exclnding boys from a troop because they were unchurched.

[King Ding Dong]

I think what Tahawk is getting at is how successful is a religious based CO in converting scouts over to their point of view.

 

I doubt there any any good statistics but his is how I imagine it plays out. The CO wants to have a relatively homogenous faith based troop with a heavy emphasis on faith. So they let in a few scouts of other faiths or relatively no faith and give it a go. Maybe has success with some of the boys maybe not but they still have a troop that does whatever it is they want the boys to do such as have a mass every Sunday morning or as we have heard posted here in the past actually pile in cars and go to closest church for mass.

 

The problem is once you open that door and more and more "unchurched" or "other churched" scouts enter the troop things start to change since we preach the whole "Boy Led" thing. Now half the troop would rather do something else on Sunday morning like fish, or just drive home. This is not what the CO had in mind, but a quota system kind of rubs them the wrong way as well.

 

I guess it boils down to what is their goal? Help others or help themselves.

 

Edit: haven't kept up on all the threads here as I do have a life outside Scouting ( such as rollercoasters) and it seems some of the other threads are backstory to this one. I suspect my input is irrelevant given the context. Carry on.

Edited June 19, 2016 by King Ding Dong

[Stosh]

I have no problem restricting membership by certain organizational CO's.  Just make it clear at the onset of the the boy's participation that he's not welcomed.  That should take care of that problem of miscommunication on down the road.

 

I go through this all the time.  The Mrs. is a member of two different ladies' kayak groups.  They go out a lot.  But if I say I want to go on a Saturday morning, she tells the ladies she isn't going to be going with them.  They have a closed group, they understand, the Mrs. would rather go kayaking with a co-ed group whenever I want to go and so the ladies' group will always come up one short for their activity because of their decision.  I've never felt it necessary to get all political due to the discrimination, it's just that this is their way of doing things and the Mrs. and I work around it.

[qwazse]

The definition of "unchurched" can be a little fuzzy. Suppose you have a secular Jewish family who gave up on synagogue but the the kid is going to the mosque every Friday for prayers. (This is America, after all.) if you don't like that configuration pick any hypothetical where the family could claim an affiliation on cultural grounds, but the kid is doing something different ... But nothing is official. I'm sure you've had one or two of these. I call them the gyrochurched, because they are switching around a lot.

[TAHAWK]

Sure.  It can be complicated.  The troop of my youth was mostly military dependents and had Scouts with Shinto moms and Catholic dads, Buddhist moms and Baptist dads, and Catholic moms and Jewish dads - all in a troop "sponsored" by a Methodist church.

 

The statement was that someone without a religion would be excluded ipso facto.

 

We could ask David to clarify, but he has declared this thread "idiotic," so I doubt that he will oblige.

[Tampa Turtle]

Our Troop is just like TAHAWK's--maybe 1/3rd Methodist and the rest a mix. Our CO is a Methodist church. I don't think we ever had a Chaplain but some very good Chaplain's Aides. Mostly encourage boys to be the best "____" you can be.

[Beavah]

We have recently been told that there is a troop, whose CO is a Roman Catholic church, that excludes or would exclude any boy who does not identify a religious faith as part of his Duty to God.  What is the members' experience with that issue?  

 

Yah, can't say I'm fond of da Scout Spirit shown by goin' after one member of da forums on multiple threads, eh?

 

In answer to da general question, I think overall that explicit membership restrictions are fairly rare.   What's a lot more common is a unit bein' very up front about their character (LDS, Catholic, evangelical, etc.) and folks choosin' to accept that sort of environment as being appropriate (or not) for their kids.   So yah, I think most LDS wards will accept non-LDS kids (don't know how they handle payment...), but most non-LDS folks don't want their sons in da LDS Young Men's program (or they just want to camp on Saturday nights ).

 

We've got a lot of Catholic units in our area, eh?  Generally speakin' they're not as thoroughly aligned with religious ed as da Mormons but moreso than most other units, eh?  For some families, that's not the right fit.  At the same time, I know Catholic units where conservative Lutherans feel at home ("we don't want our son in a secular unit that doesn't teach Christian values"), and Catholic units where Jewish families feel at home ("we like the institutional emphasis on learning, where the other troop we were in wasn't as rigorous").  To my knowledge none of da Catholic units in our area actively reject non-Catholic youth, though I reckon da unchurched and da anti-Catholic evangelicals would be the folks who wouldn't be a good fit.   I do know at least one unit that is de facto all Catholic, because of a tight affiliation with a Catholic school with a very overt Catholic character.

 

Mostly from what I'm seein' da Catholic units are startin' to exercise stronger control/expectations on adult leaders, not kids.  So they want Catholic SMs, for example, or want more ideologically compatible adults across da board.  Probably a result of our membership rules flip-flop.  

 

What @@David CO is describin' in da other thread, where all parish youth activities are supposed to schedule service projects so as not to conflict with da 8th grade confirmation class seems pretty OK.    It doesn't affect kids for more than a few months, eh?  And it only affects 8th graders.   It's similar to da United Way rules where if yeh receive United Way money you're not allowed to run your own major fundraiser in conflict with da annual UW fund drive.  That used to affect a lot of BSA councils.  Still does in some areas.

 

If yeh want to receive UW dollars or participate in a program that's bein' offered out of the kindness of others' hearts, yeh live with da terms they set.   Otherwise, yeh find a different program, eh?  Maybe a commercial one where yeh pay full cost to get what yeh want.

 

Beavah

[perdidochas]

We have recently been told that there is a troop, whose CO is a Roman Catholic church, that excludes or would exclude any boy who does not identify a religious faith as part of his Duty to God.

 

Before discussing what the B.S.A. and the Roman Catholic Church in the United States say on the topic, what is the members' experience with that issue?  

 

Does your church, temple, or synagogue exclude boys who do not identify as belonging to a religion?

 

 

Next, should the a boy be excluded on the sole grounds that he does not profess membership in a religion?

 

I do agree that a Scout can't be an atheist, however, other than that, I don't understand it.  I can see a Catholic CO only allowing Catholic kids, or kids from a Catholic school. I don't think it's a good idea, but it is allowed. I can't see a Catholic CO allowing kids of definite faiths, but not allowing kids who believe in God, but don't follow any organized religious faith.  I say this as a fairly devout Catholic who is an ASM at a troop with a Catholic CO.

[TAHAWK]

Beav, I thought it was an interesting issue and raises the question of how a CO can best promote the values shared by Scouting and the church according to the National Catholic Committee on Scouting and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops - exclusion or inclusion.

 

You take it personally, as sometimes appropriate for an advocate.

 

Your choice.

 

As for your final paragraph, that issue is addressed in the other thread.  The ban on Scout service projects is said by David to last until the Catholic Scout completes Confirmation, however long that takes.

[Beavah]

Beav, I thought it was an interesting issue and raises the question of how a CO can best promote the values shared by Scouting and the church according to the National Catholic Committee on Scouting and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops - exclusion or inclusion.

 

 

 

Yah, hmmm...  I'm not takin' anything personally, mate.  I'm just givin' yeh feedback. Of course now you're speakin' for da NCCS and USCCB as well as for da BSA, eh?  As their spokesman I'm sure yeh must be right.  One wonders if yeh ever get time to sleep.

 

@@David CO and some other Catholics on da list can speak to it better than me, but as far as I know Catholic confirmation programs are one year things.

 

More to the point, I'm not aware of any Scouting programs that are designed to be evangelical in da way you describe.  LDS might be closest, but not really.   Churches offer Scouting as part of their youth ministry, sure, but not generally as part of their evangelical ministry.  It strikes me that da BSA would be a poor partner for evangelical work.   For a church's youth ministry, they mostly minister to their own youth, eh?  Or at least to youth who are interested.

 

Beavah

[Sentinel947]

What need was there to create a thread to discuss a different thread? 

Sentinel947