Frustrated with Daughter's leader

[mashmaster]

I needed to rant....

 

I know this is mainly about Boy Scouts but my daughter is a Girl Scout working on her Gold Award in the final stages of the project proposal phase.   They are supposed to work independently and her super controlling troop leader can barely bother to talk with her about her project because it wasn't the leaders idea.  After my daughter contacts her a couple times she tries to postpone meeting again then finally subsides and comes to our house for like 2 minutes to sign the paperwork, can't even bother to talk to my daughter about what the project is and how she and the troop can help support her.   

 

My daughter will be the first Gold Award recipient for the troop and the troop has been around for a while.  You would think the leader could support a girl that is putting in the work.  I am sure the leader will be all smiles when they award my daughter the award in front of all of the other leaders...

 

Sorry just a rant.

[Stosh]

As ASM, I have had situations like this with my former SM.  If the project wasn't his idea, it wasn't worth doing.

 

But you are right.  When there's credit to be taken, they'll be right there, all smiles, waiting to get patted on the back.

[scoutldr]

Maybe she's jealous that her daughter will not get the first "Gold".  Petty.

[meyerc13]

When I was growing up, I spent several summers working for my grandma helping her clean her attic.  She knew I wanted money for a computer, and she knew the value of working for something you want, so she 'hired' me to help her.  This must have been around 6th or 7th grade.  In hindsight, I would have helped her for free, because we spent far more time reminiscing about things found in the attic than we did actually getting any cleaning done.

 

Over the course of that summer, I learned that grandmas are people too.  That once upon a time she was a teenager and got into as much trouble as teenagers today get into.  I also learned that she was a Girl Scout leader.  Not the kind of leader my daughter has today, but the kind of leader that would have made Baden Powell proud.  The kind who carried a pocket knife... took the girls camping... knew how to build a campfire.

 

As I alluded to in my last paragraph, that's not the kind of leader my daughter has today.  The first Girl Scout leader my daughter encountered at her school told her the Troop was full, sorry, you can't be a Girl Scout.  So that year my daughter didn't join.  This year my daughter tried again at the school, and same thing.  So we called the Girl Scout office and they hooked us up with a different Troop pulling together girls from across the City.  So far so good.

 

Well, when the year started they met consistently twice a month.  Unfortunately it was mostly crafts, socializing, and classroom work.  No outdoors in their program.  As the year went on, meetings became few and far between.  By the time the cookie sale wrapped up a few months ago, the Troop somewhat fizzled out.  The leaders keep talking about having another meeting, but somehow it never quite works into their schedules.

 

Now I know we have some dud units in the BSA... but so far my family's entire experience with the GS has been poor.  My wife wants to step up and take over the Troop in the fall, and I think one of the two leaders supports that idea, but I don't know how the other leader will respond to this (she's the one who works in the medical field and the reason so many meetings were cancelled due to her shift work).

 

I don't want to start a flamefest, but are these situations typical of how the Girl Scouts operate?  Surely there must be some good Troops out there?  Why are there so many who:

• Aren't going outdoors
• Only consist of 6-8 girls all the same age (we would call this a den... is this how all Girl Scout Troops are?)
• Turn away girls once they have their 6-8 girls their daughter's age
• Can't be bothered to have a regular, consistent meeting schedule
• Spend more time selling cookies than they do meeting in the year
• Don't seem to care about their girls' advancement

Again, I know we have Cub Scout packs like this, but I know that as a District we know which Packs are in trouble and we use our Commissioner service to try to set them on the right path.  For the Girl Scouts, if this is happening they aren't very effective at it, at least not from what I've seen so far.

[qwazse]

@@meyerc13, you are not alone. For the reasons you mention, I consider GS/USA's Gold award one of the most challenging out there for young people to achieve. Unlike Eagle, the blueprint for advancement is just not that detailed.

 

As far as I can tell GS/USA does not demand that moms run a similar program. Some moms do take on multiple ages and no limit of girls, insist that their girls pursue outdoor activities, and push them to take leadership, earn awards, and effect change for the good in their community. But, they are generally not required to do any of that. Most do some, but few do all every month of the year.

 

And, most girls (and their parents) are quite content with that. I wish I could get paid for every time a girl complains about her troop but will never join a crew, or if she does, once in the crew does nothing to plan an activity or do anything that would take her outside of her comfort zone. I've come to the conclusion that GS/USA has regressed to the mean expectation of their constituents.

 

The young women who make great venturers are the ones who are fully engaged in their troop and then put extra time into their crew.

[David CO]

Girl Scout troops don't have Chartered Organizations.  

 

In the Boy Scouts, the CO owns the camping equipment.  This makes it much easier for a Boy Scout troop with a good CO to invest in and accumulate an adequate supply of camping equipment.

[Eagledad]

Your topic is the primary reason I don't want girls in the BSA below age 14. Your observation is more typical of of the Girl Scout program then we would like to admit.

 

Believe it or not, one of my mentors of becoming a boy run scout leader was a women who in her life was the equivalent of a Council Executive for two councils. She became so frustrated with dealing with the very same attitudes you describe that she left the organization. She eventually got involved with Cub Scouts with her son, which is how we met. She is so adamant about women being terrible scout leaders that she wouldn't allow her son to join a troop that accepted women leaders.

 

She believes, and I agree, that the nurturing instinct of a woman doesn't work well in a program where young boys are encouraged to learn from their independent decisions and mistakes. Protecting their youth from any kind of hurt (mistake) is part of that nurturing instinct.

 

The goals of a boy run experience are counter to the instinctive nature of mothers. Because they don't understanding how giving youth some independence leads to grow and maturity, these leaders don't understand how teams (troops), camping, and responsiblity all work in the scouting program process to build mature decision makers. So they change and improvise the program to fit more of what they think is good for their girls. They simply don't get it, so they ignore the published program and make it up as they go along. Your daughter's leader doesnt understand the growth your daughter gained from the award, so she has no respect for the Gold Award or your daughters effort to earn it. Ask yourself, how many people outside of the organization even know what the Gold Award is. There isn't a unified acceptance in the Girl Scouts organization for what a girl gains from the Gold Award. Not like the Eagle.

 

To be fair, we have a couple of posters here on the forum who believe the are the 2nd coming Badon Powell and dis everyone else's opinions. But the BSA community as a whole believes in the program and holds these leaders in check. The Girls Scouts don't have that community, so each Troop leader does what they want. My wife quit the Girls Scouts after three years. The frustration wasn't worth it.

 

Accepting young girls in the BSA would also bring more female leaders with the same nurturing instinct and I personally believe that would eventually pull more adventure and independence away from the boys program at an age when they grow the most from those experience. We have already seen some of that after the BSA started accepting female Boy Scout leaders.

 

The good that comes from this experience is your daughter will grow to appreciate you for the support you have given and are continually giving her during this frustrating process. I'm at the age that I know she will hand those same gifts to her children.

 

Barry

[bsaggcmom]

I am in the same boat with my daughter and her Gold award. I have helped a half dozen Eagle candidates with their paperwork and proposals. That's a cake walk compared to our GSUSA council's Gold paperwork. GSUSA's paperwork is all touchy feely crap. There's no real planning involved. "How are you going to let the world know about your project?" "How do you think you'll when you finish your project?" "Who's your target audience?" Nothing that really helps a girl layout a plan and carry it off.

 

In addition in our council plans must be turned in months before you want to start working for approval of the board. A girl's paperwork could be tied up for up to 3 months before she knows if it approved or not. Then it repeats with re-writes and adjustments. Then a mentor from the council not the girl sets the progress of the project. If the girl isn't moving at a speed the mentor sees fit the project is over. Too bad if its finals, soccer season or the holidays or you have a summer job. Move at the mentor's requirements. Oh and if no mentor wants to bother with the project or thinks it is worthy you are done before you start.

 

Daughter is not very tech savvy. She doesn't want the world to know about her project, she really doesn't want to start a twitter or facebook page or other blog about it. She picked a project that has deep meaning to her, helping premature babies. She was once one and wants to give the next generation a little tiny lift on their tough fight for life. The only adult to not give her grief so far is the beneficiary of the organization she wants to help.

 

No wonder only 17 in our immediate area and only about 45 in the entire great lakes state that we live in earned this award last year.   

[desertrat77]

I've worked with some control freaks in the BSA over the decades, but they were pikers compared the ones I encountered in the GSA. 

 

@@mashmaster, I wish you and your daughter the very best, and when she completes the Gold, please let us know so we can pass along our congratulations.

[meyerc13]

She picked a project that has deep meaning to her, helping premature babies. She was once one and wants to give the next generation a little tiny lift on their tough fight for life. The only adult to not give her grief so far is the beneficiary of the organization she wants to help.   

 

I don't know what your daughter's project is, but as a dad who had two kids born (slightly) premature, I am sure that it is a great project.  My wife and I went through all of the childbirth classes in preparation for our son.  Yet when the pregnancy quickly went from normal to trouble over a month before he was due, we found that we weren't prepared at all.  From the emergency C Section, to having to choose between staying with my wife or going with my newborn son to the NICU, to going through the ups and downs of the NICU for a week (we were lucky it was only a week)... it was without a doubt the hardest week of my life.  Anything your daughter does to help those little ones and their families will be greatly appreciated by everyone involved.  Those who haven't gone through the emotional roller coaster of having a newborn end up in the NICU can't even begin to comprehend what that is like, but for those in that situation, any little bit can help.

[SSScout]

Yep, GSUSA is a good deal different than BSA.  The GSTroop depends entirely on the wiles and wishes of the leader.  If the leader wants to do fashion and cookies, that is what they do.  Sad is the father who offers to take the girls out and catch crawdads in a creek. He will be looked at with a scant eye. 

Lucky is the girl who finds a GSUSA leader who is an outdoorslady, they are rare in the GSUSA world.

And remember, the GSTroop lasts only as long as the leader allows, there is usually no continuity, no passing of the torch from older to younger. When the leaders' Brownie graduates out as a Cadet/Ambassador, the Troop disappears.   Rare is the GSTroop that values a continuous existence.  I know around here, the local Service Area actually denied a GSTroop it's "charter" ( they are owned by the Council, not a C.O.)  because "it was too old".

And membership denial?  If the GSTroop leader has enough girls, they can say "sorry" to any one.  Not my daughter's friend?  "sorry".  Not from our school?  "sorry".  Been known to happen.    But there are some ladies who have the right idea, much to the Big WIgs amazement, and so we do have out and dirty camper GSs, long lived GSTroops (longer than 10 years?) , and dads who are a big part of the GSTroop .  I Knew a Boy Scouter who chartered a Daisy Troop thru his wife's name, and he took'em on hikes and rock hunting trips. Mom often stayed home.  The other moms and dads thought it was great. Local Service area had to eat the humble crow. 

[King Ding Dong]

.

To be fair, we have a couple of posters here on the forum who believe the are the 2nd coming Badon Powell and dis everyone else's opinions.

Only a couple? So who is the other one?

[mashmaster]

I've worked with some control freaks in the BSA over the decades, but they were pikers compared the ones I encountered in the GSA. 

 

@@mashmaster, I wish you and your daughter the very best, and when she completes the Gold, please let us know so we can pass along our congratulations.

Will do,

 

From what I have seen on both sides of the fence the pre-work for boy scouts is more intense and the last phase is easier.  The project/proposal phase for gold award is much harder and slower.  I've seen Eagle projects approved in one night an completed a month later.  That doesn't seem possible for the Gold Award.

[qwazse]

Your topic is the primary reason I don't want girls in the BSA below age 14. Your observation is more typical of of the Girl Scout program then we would like to admit.

 

Believe it or not, one of my mentors of becoming a boy run scout leader was a women who in her life was the equivalent of a Council Executive for two councils. She became so frustrated with dealing with the very same attitudes you describe that she left the organization. She eventually got involved with Cub Scouts with her son, which is how we met. She is so adamant about women being terrible scout leaders that she wouldn't allow her son to join a troop that accepted women leaders.

 

...

Accepting young girls in the BSA would also bring more female leaders with the same nurturing instinct and I personally believe that would eventually pull more adventure and independence away from the boys program at an age when they grow the most from those experience. We have already seen some of that after the BSA started accepting female Boy Scout leaders.

 

The good that comes from this experience is your daughter will grow to appreciate you for the support you have given and are continually giving her during this frustrating process. I'm at the age that I know she will hand those same gifts to her children.

 

Barry

@@Eagledad, you are making the case against GS/USA and BSA ever merging.

 

That's not the same as a case against admitting motivated elementary and middle school girls into BSA. (Not a scenario I relish, but I'm told by our friends across the waters it's not as scary as it sounds.)

 

The "nightmare scenario" as you describe it would have to do with scads of outdoor-phobic helicopter moms running the show. How would it be different that?

1. We wouldn't to get droves of girls flocking to BSA. Most will still prefer GS/USA.
2. Those girls who come will bring their dads, who may be outstanding leaders but we've missed them for having had to devote time to their daughters (maybe not in GS/USA, but in other extracurricular activities).
3. The moms who will come will do so because they've bought into our culture. Not the other way around.
4. The current training regimen sets the tone. For good or ill, that will continue to be the case.
5. The advancement method sets the program.

Thus I am not as worried about the consequences of going co-ed as the fact that there may be some of the nation's finest scouts out their not getting the program they deserve. If GS/USA or Campfire or BPSA step into that gap, fine. If not, that third point of the scout law is gonna nag the lot of us until we do something about it.

[Eagledad]

Qwazse, I've been an adult leader almost since the induction of women troop leaders and the program has changed a lot as a result. Any addition of female leaders will further change the program away from the boys. It WILL BE less adventure and less boy run (more adult run). I don't approve of any changes that takes quality away from my son even if it does improve for my daughter. There is a program for girls, it's time the energy for promoting girls in the BSA get turned to the swaying the Girl Scouts to improve their program.

 

Barry