Webelos Patch - When?

[MattHiggins]

Cub Scouts advancement frequently confuses people. A Tiger den wears Tiger gear (hat, neckerchief and slide), but gets the Tiger patch when they've completed the requirements. They're called Tigers but haven't yet earned the Tiger rank. Same with Wolves and Bears. You earn the patch when you've completed the requirements. Webelos, however, is a two-year program that concludes with the presentation of the Arrow of Light rank. My question is when are you awarding the Webelos patch. After the end of the first year, right? Complete the requirements, get the patch. We're talking new program here.

[JosephMD]

Yes, you award the Webelos badge when the scout has completed the requirements.  Depending on your den and your scouts, it may take them to the end of the school year, or they may finish up early.  I generally subscribe to awarding the badge as soon as possible after the scout has completed the requirements, the first pack meeting after is ideal.

[MattHiggins]

Yes, you award the Webelos badge when the scout has completed the requirements.  Depending on your den and your scouts, it may take them to the end of the school year, or they may finish up early.  I generally subscribe to awarding the badge as soon as possible after the scout has completed the requirements, the first pack meeting after is ideal.

I'm on the same page. Had a fellow leader in our unit with a different opinion. Asked a different leader and got yet a different answer.

[Stosh]

The awards are age specific, not rank building.  It kinda takes away the whole concept of one builds on another.

 

While a first grader one works on Tiger activities and if they successfully complete the requirements they get the award.

 

While a second grader one works on Wolf....  If they didn't get Tiger that first year they cannot go back and pick it up.  It's just a lost opportunity for the boy.

 

When one gets to the Webelos level, they have two awards one for the age and then the "Other One"  Now they seem to think it's not necessary that any of the awards be issued prior to awarding the highest award in Cub Scouting.  One can come into the Webelos program and only work on AOL award requirements and bypass all other awards in scouting.  It is as if the Webelos award is now just bling for those wishing to have a complete set of award badges. 

 

It is not like Boy Scout ranks where one builds on another.  In Cub Scouts all the age awards are stand alone awards and the AOL has become just another award.  It isn't even the last award.  A boy joining Cub Scouts at age nine can have his AOL award as his very first award. 

 

Therefore if the Webelos boys wish to work towards the Webelos award, I would issue it as soon as he has met all the requirements, the same as any of the other awards in Cub Scouts.

[MattHiggins]

Thanks, guys. I think we all agree.

 

I personally like the distinction between Cubs and Scouts. I am, however, on the fence about not having to earn Webelos to get Arrow of Light.

[Eagle94-A1]

It is not like Boy Scout ranks where one builds on another.  In Cub Scouts all the age awards are stand alone awards and the AOL has become just another award.  It isn't even the last award.  A boy joining Cub Scouts at age nine can have his AOL award as his very first award. 

 

 

Not necessarily. They still need to earn their Bobcat rank. Plus requirement 1 is the following:

 

"Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old"

 

Grant you, a Cub with a late birthday, say my middle son, could skip over Webelos and start work directly on AOL so that by the end of May, he would meet the 10.5 requirement.

 

An aside. Glad my son decided to stick with his den and cross over in December when he is 11 instead of at 10.5. With the challenges the troop is having (see the other thread for an update), I know he would be frustrated, and working with an ASM I no longer have confidence in.

[Stosh]

Not necessarily. They still need to earn their Bobcat rank. Plus requirement 1 is the following:

 

"Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old"

 

Grant you, a Cub with a late birthday, say my middle son, could skip over Webelos and start work directly on AOL so that by the end of May, he would meet the 10.5 requirement.

 

An aside. Glad my son decided to stick with his den and cross over in December when he is 11 instead of at 10.5. With the challenges the troop is having (see the other thread for an update), I know he would be frustrated, and working with an ASM I no longer have confidence in.

 

Seriously?  The Bobcat pin is handed out like parade candy here in this part of the world.

 

6 months after completing 4th grade I was just turning 10 years old.  With that math, one could get that 6 months in, turn 10, earn the AOL and be ready for scouts at 10 years of age.

 

I know some of the boys in my group do not have Webelos awards, some do.  However they are all going to earn the AOL   The cross-over is May 29th.  One boy turns 10 years old  on Jun 7 and he's been in Webelos for 14 months.  He will have finished 5th grade at age 9.

 

While it is not common, it is possible.

[Faith]

I'm with the majority here on both accounts. My scouts were Webelos from June 1st of last year until this June. They all (but one) earned their Webelos patch in February. They will all become AOLs June 1st. We will then start working for that patch. I am not accepting anymore scouts in my den this coming year, so unless a new parent takes over a second AOL den, all of ours would have had to earn the Webelos patch in order to get the AOL patch. The one scout that didn't earn the Webelos patch, I doubt he will even try with AOL. He didn't earn Wolf or Bear either. I have 10 scouts so no one in our pack can question why I'm not taking anymore. And this way, I get to follow what I liked about the old system. I know its not up to *me* but as their leader, I'm glad I have the choice to stick with just the scouts I have now.

[meyerc13]

My scouts were Webelos from June 1st of last year until this June. They all (but one) earned their Webelos patch in February. They will all become AOLs June 1st. We will then start working for that patch. I am not accepting anymore scouts in my den this coming year,

 

That's not how Webelos and Arrow of Light work under the new program.  If I remember correctly, unlike other ranks where boys advance in the BSA's system on 6/1, all Webelos have always been classified as just "Webelos."  Under the new program, boys can earn the nine required and five elective adventures for Webelos and Arrow of Light in any order (see page 12 here).  If your Webelos den completed the requirements for the Webelos badge in February, you could and should have immediately started working on the requirements for Arrow of Light.  Any additional electives earned by your den since February count toward the AoL elective requirements.

 

In fact, when I train new Webelos Den Leaders, I recommend that the first adventure they start working on is the Scouting Adventure.  True, it doesn't count toward the Webelos rank, but it does lay out a set of requirements that should guide the boys' entire Webelos experience.  Visiting Troops, attending campouts and day long events with Troops, practicing the patrol method - those things should be done regularly for all Webelos dens.  Also, I remind them that our goal with 5th graders is to get them to cross-over to Boy Scouts with a few months left before summer so that the boys can make plans to attend summer camp with their new Troops.  By spending their 4th grade year earning extra electives whenever possible (Pin Days, Camp, etc.), they'll have less to do in the fall before they can crossover.

 

I also have to admit that if you were a Den Leader in the Pack for which I'm Cubmaster, that I'd be deeply disturbed by your suggestion that your den is full.  If your son's best friend wanted to join in the fall, you'd turn him away?  If so, you've probably caused that boy to give up on Scouting for good.  If the boy is really passionate about it, perhaps he'll seek out another Pack.  Even if your son's best friend is already in the Pack, do you know the same is true for all the other nine boys in the den?

 

I've seen the Girl Scouts at my daughter's school do this to my daughter, and it really crushed her to hear that the local Girl Scout Troop was 'full.'  I agree that 10 boys is a lot for a den, but the solution isn't to turn away additional boys, the solution is to split the den into two.  This works especially well for Webelos, just make two 'Patrols' within the dens and recruit a second Den Leader or an Assistant to help lead the other 'patrol'.  Frankly, having had dens with 10-12 boys  and dens with 3-4 boys, I can definitively say that a Pack functions best with 5-8 boys in a den.  Less than five and the den will struggle, and more than eight and the den becomes too large to give each boy his turn to fully experience the activities.  Your ten boy den really should have been split down the middle long ago to give the boys the best Scouting experience possible.

[Rover Scout]

All:

 

I would not recommend starting with the "Scouting Adventure" AOL adventure as the first step in a traditional den. The rationale: for boys that join Cub Scouting during grade five and are eligible to earn the Arrow of Light rank during that year, it makes things more difficult for a den leader who needs to meet a variety of advancement needs for boys in grade five. By working on AOL adventures and electives, it encourages building a team through shared activities by all the boys in the den. For example, the transition from den to patrol is part of the Scouting Adventure award, and having boys experience it together was intended as part of the process.

 

Dens can certainly meet and work with Boy Scout troops all during their time as a Webelos; it's a worthwhile thing to do, even if it does not lead to meeting a requirement.

 

Full disclosure: I was on the volunteer team that developed the adventure-based Cub Scout materials.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ken

[Faith]

That's not how Webelos and Arrow of Light work under the new program.  If I remember correctly, unlike other ranks where boys advance in the BSA's system on 6/1, all Webelos have always been classified as just "Webelos."  Under the new program, boys can earn the nine required and five elective adventures for Webelos and Arrow of Light in any order (see page 12 here).  If your Webelos den completed the requirements for the Webelos badge in February, you could and should have immediately started working on the requirements for Arrow of Light.  Any additional electives earned by your den since February count toward the AoL elective requirements.

 

In fact, when I train new Webelos Den Leaders, I recommend that the first adventure they start working on is the Scouting Adventure.  True, it doesn't count toward the Webelos rank, but it does lay out a set of requirements that should guide the boys' entire Webelos experience.  Visiting Troops, attending campouts and day long events with Troops, practicing the patrol method - those things should be done regularly for all Webelos dens.  Also, I remind them that our goal with 5th graders is to get them to cross-over to Boy Scouts with a few months left before summer so that the boys can make plans to attend summer camp with their new Troops.  By spending their 4th grade year earning extra electives whenever possible (Pin Days, Camp, etc.), they'll have less to do in the fall before they can crossover.

 

I also have to admit that if you were a Den Leader in the Pack for which I'm Cubmaster, that I'd be deeply disturbed by your suggestion that your den is full.  If your son's best friend wanted to join in the fall, you'd turn him away?  If so, you've probably caused that boy to give up on Scouting for good.  If the boy is really passionate about it, perhaps he'll seek out another Pack.  Even if your son's best friend is already in the Pack, do you know the same is true for all the other nine boys in the den?

 

I've seen the Girl Scouts at my daughter's school do this to my daughter, and it really crushed her to hear that the local Girl Scout Troop was 'full.'  I agree that 10 boys is a lot for a den, but the solution isn't to turn away additional boys, the solution is to split the den into two.  This works especially well for Webelos, just make two 'Patrols' within the dens and recruit a second Den Leader or an Assistant to help lead the other 'patrol'.  Frankly, having had dens with 10-12 boys  and dens with 3-4 boys, I can definitively say that a Pack functions best with 5-8 boys in a den.  Less than five and the den will struggle, and more than eight and the den becomes too large to give each boy his turn to fully experience the activities.  Your ten boy den really should have been split down the middle long ago to give the boys the best Scouting experience possible.

 

We tried the splitting method a little over a year ago when I had 15. It did not work and I ended up absorbing back some that split so that we did not lose them (the rest, well, we lost.) If my son's best friend asked to join my den, yes, I would say no. Because when I was at 15, I was about to go crazy. I couldn't give my full attention to the boys like I should be able. I refuse to take another scout "to be nice" at the expense of the other boys' enjoying the program. I will gladly help train another den leader to start a new den (which we will need this year if any additional AOLs sign up) but I will not split and I will not take anymore. My assistant den leader is my best friend. She isn't a parent of my den. Before her, my husband was my assistant den leader. We have trouble recruiting just volunteers as it is. A leader, yeah, its not happening. 

 

We have a current Bear den that split last August. 5 went to one den, 7 to the other. They said it was best to do that. Guess what. The one with 5's leader stepped down officially tonight at our pack meet after we were warned she'd be doing so abruptly last night due to her job and other personal issues. The other 4 parents refuse to step up (due to this or that - girl scouts, work, work & no interest.) They'll either be absorbed back into the other den or "in limbo" until they can get a leader.

 

I am not going through that again my last year. Most of my 10 have been with me since Wolf (3 since Tiger.) It works for us. We have 1 that hasn't ranked twice now but he still continues with the program to the best of his ability depending on his parents or others. I know I gripe on here sometimes but overall, this works for us. 

 

Once my boys ranked in February, we did activities not in the book for the remainder of the scouting year (March-May.) Outings for adventure, to learn, for fun. This was due to personal conflicts that made it impossible for me to do as many den meets as I had before. My youngest son started his first extracurricular activity in March and quite a few of our scouts were also in various sports. We all voted to start fresh in June, the parents were ok with that, I am ok with that - its what works for us. I've never did this before, we always went gung-ho throughout the year but it was needed. I already have the 4 AOL requirements + 3 electives worked out in my calendar to make sure they are done before February (with room for leniency, of course.) 

 

I am sorry you are disturbed by my methods. I guess its best I'm in my current pack who accepts and understands it  

[Stosh]

There is nothing wrong with a Cub Scout not receiving awards, those things that everyone calls ranks but aren't. 

 

If the boys is having fun, not disrupting the others, if he doesn't care, why should anyone else?

 

Most boys are awarded the Bobcat when they join.  It's pretty easy and is a nice bling thing to start with.

 

After that they don't rank anything, they simply move on by age to the next year of scouting.  If they didn't get awarded the patch for doing the work, then they move on anyway.

 

I have a few boys in my Webelos den that have had this type of experience.  They had a non-functioning pack, or had DL's that didn't make a full commitment to the boys.  I have a few that have earned NO awards, but are working on their Arrow of Light and will cross over into Boy Scouts with the only award earned would be that Arrow of Light.  How is this possible?  A boy joins Boy Scouts and the only "rank" they earn is Eagle? 

 

There are two different systems here at work.  The two are completely different.  In Cubs, work on the awards if one wishes and if the boy doesn't complete the work, no big deal they just move on to more fun next year based on age.  Even when one joins, they join their age level of Cub Scouts.  Boy Scouts, regardless of age all start at the beginning and build rank by rank to the rank of Eagle.

 

District Award of Merit is not based on the number of years a person puts into Scouting, neither is the Silver Beaver Award, but there is no general that has ever served in the army or admiral that has ever served in the navy that didn't work their way up the "ladder" to their respective rank.

 

I think more adults are upset that Cub Scouts don't get awards than the boys do.  Even though they might have had a blast in Cub Scouting, adults make them feel like failures if they don't get their bling, so they bend over backwards doing everything possible, including cheating, to get the boy his bling patch.  That's rather unfortunate.

[meyerc13]

All:

 

I would not recommend starting with the "Scouting Adventure" AOL adventure as the first step in a traditional den. The rationale: for boys that join Cub Scouting during grade five and are eligible to earn the Arrow of Light rank during that year, it makes things more difficult for a den leader who needs to meet a variety of advancement needs for boys in grade five. By working on AOL adventures and electives, it encourages building a team through shared activities by all the boys in the den. For example, the transition from den to patrol is part of the Scouting Adventure award, and having boys experience it together was intended as part of the process.

 

Dens can certainly meet and work with Boy Scout troops all during their time as a Webelos; it's a worthwhile thing to do, even if it does not lead to meeting a requirement.

 

Full disclosure: I was on the volunteer team that developed the adventure-based Cub Scout materials.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ken

The boys do experience it together - as one of the first things they do as Webelos.  And then they experience it again and again and again... the way our Pack sees it, the Scouting Adventure isn't something you do once and done - it's the way that we run our Webelos program from Day 1 until the day they cross over.  Attending Troop Meetings, using the Patrol Method (to a degree), attending Troop campouts, tying knots and using a pocket knife - these are ongoing things that every Webelos Scout should be doing.  And when they complete the requirements - they complete the Adventure - whether it was 'scheduled' on our calendar for that month or not.

 

Is this Boy Scouts lite?  Yes, it probably is.  But with kids having gone through three years of Scouting already (soon to be four with the Lions program), they need a change of pace to keep them engaged.  We slowly immerse them into the patrol method, first having them elect a denner to serve as their 'Patrol Leader,' come up with a patrol name, emblem, flag, yell, etc.  At first, the Den Leader does much of the planning, but month after month we include the boys in more and more of the planning so that they can get a feel for what Boy Scouts is really about.

 

I've got to say thank you for the hard work that you and others put in to the new program - overall I think it is a success.  However, there are some things that you got wrong - and this Adventure is one of them, in my opinion (and I'm not alone in this - I've heard much the same from other Packs in our District).  The BSA has a terrible time at retaining youth from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts.  One Troop visit and campout, plus one month of using the patrol method in the fifth grade - that's not going to keep the boys engaged through Arrow of Light - much less get them to crossover.  I know you guys were so fixed on everything being an adventure, but I think you missed the boat on this one.  These requirements, like the Cyberchip, should have been part of the Webelos rank requirements, not a separate Adventure.  And these requirements should have been split between Webelos and AoL - maybe visit one Troop, come up with a Patrol name/flag/etc., elect a denner, and do one event with a Troop that isn't a Troop Meeting for Webelos; and then visit additional Troops, attend a campout, and have each boy plan an Adventure for AoL.

 

To further support my stance - the BSA itself recommends that LDS units use a rolling calendar of 12 months of adventures.  So if a boy turns 10 the month before the Scouting Adventure - that's the first Adventure he'd do.  So if it is okay for LDS units, how can you tell us with a straight face that non-LDS units shouldn't work on the Scouting Adventure first?

 

I really hope that the BSA re-evaluates this program in a couple of years and revises the Adventure requirements.  There are definitely some issues with the new program.  The top four, in my opinion:

1.)  Not enough Outings in the Wolf year (if you go by the Den Leaders Guide meeting plans)

2.)  Way too many compound Adventures in the Bear year - Combining Cooking/Camping/Weather/Knots/Campfire; or Hiking/Animals/Plants; or Citizenship/Law Enforcement/History/Energy Conservation... it's just too much.  Having had a son who was a Webelos, and filling in as a Bear Den Leader - there was way too much going on in the Bear requirements compared to any other rank.  Comments on here and from other units in my District echo what I've said about Bear - so it isn't just me.

3.)  The Scouting Adventure shouldn't be just an AoL requirement - this should be an integral requirement of both the Webelos and Arrow of Light years.

4.)  Bring back something like this for the new program.  I know this isn't the preferred method of delivery - but the fact is there are some units with less boys than the OP's den from this thread.  When you have 10 or less boys in a Pack, you can't split them into five dens.  They aren't going to experience the Cub Scout program fully that way.  By bringing the various ages together, they'll have more fun with a larger group - even if it means that they might be working ahead on some Adventure requirements.  I know it isn't ideal - but it is reality.  Right now these tiny Packs are really struggling with the new program because they no longer have a resource like the Alternative Delivery Manuals available to them.

 

Other than those four, I think overall the new program works.  There may be parts of other adventures that need tweaking, but for the most part I haven't heard of any Adventures that people really hated, and Advancement is so much simpler now than it used to be.  So I applaud you for your hard work and the overall output - but right now I think I'd have to grade the new program as a B-.  There's definitely some opportunity to fix a few things to bring the new program to the A+++ level.

Edited May 24, 2016 by meyerc13

[Tampa Turtle]

 

meyerc13, good comments!

 

[Rover Scout]

Specific response:

 

"To further support my stance - the BSA itself recommends that LDS units use a rolling calendar of 12 months of adventures.  So if a boy turns 10 the month before the Scouting Adventure - that's the first Adventure he'd do.  So if it is okay for LDS units, how can you tell us with a straight face that non-LDS units shouldn't work on the Scouting Adventure first?"

 

The BSA does not recommend the delivery system that units with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints uses.  They maintain a program, designed to work with their religious education program (that articulates with Scouting) that is based on ages, and not on grades.  As boys enter and leave the den on their birthday, they will encounter that adventure when it is encountered.  It is not a matter of a straight face or not - it is a delivery need with LDS units.  It is not (or should not) be a delivery concern with traditional Webelos Scout dens.

 

General comments:

The division between AOL and Webelos was intentional and designed to meet the needs of boys who join Cub Scouting in grade 5.  With the exception of the linked AOL and Webelos ranks used since the mid 1980s, AOL was the only Cub Scout rank that required earning a previous rank for advancement (not counting Bobcat).  This was determined to be a disincentive for boys joining Cub Scouts in grade 5.  The current AOL requirements were designed to provide a strong transition into Boy Scouting

 

The overall crossover rate from Cub Scouting into Boy Scouting is fairly high - it is the retention within the first six months of Webelos that has been the greatest challenge.

 

As far as concerns you may have regarding the program, I would recommend you share your feedback at program.content@@scouting.org.  Please offer your concern and a recommended solution.  The information will be reviewed by the members of the Cub Scout Design and Development Task Force, who are charged with providing updates to the new program as they are identified and vetted.

 

Back to hibernation...

 

Ken