Something to give in place of badge at graduation?

[King Ding Dong]

Without digging up 3 year old threads I thought it was the consensus of this community that the program year ended on May 31st and that was it. If you were not done, you were not done and time to move on to the next rank.

 

In this particular case it is a failure of adult leadership not the boys. The boys were not given the opportunity and did what was asked of them. That may not make a difference in many people's minds but to some it does.

 

In this specific case my preference would be to extend the deadline and let the boys finish it correctly, but doesn't that have the same effect as just giving it to them now? They didn't meet the requirements.

 

In BS we might hope in a similar situation the PLC would request a meeting with the COR and request the entire Committe and SM be fired and competent leadership recruited or they just find a new troop. We don't really expect thto Cubs to do that as well?

Edited May 13, 2016 by King Ding Dong

[desertrat77]

Stosh, you mention the bling and the program.

 

When I came back to scouting after a long break, I was dumbfounded at how many geegaws the cub program had added over the years.   Perform a simple task--here's a patch, pin, loop, bead!  

 

So cub scouting depends on shiny objects to keep kids involved?   How shallow is that?   Not to mention financially profitably for National to sell all of that stuff.

 

The scouts can see through it.   When there is a multitude of junk, none of it seems valuable.   The only people impressed are the adults, who can only see little boys sitting there in the audience and gosh, we don't want to see Johnny upset.   Different point of view:   treat Johnny like a young man and he'll conduct himself as such.   Treat him like a baby, and most of the time, he'll act like a baby.   But it's tough to convince some cub scout leaders of that.

 

Nostalgia aside, my personal experience as a cub scout was wonderful.   Superb from day 1 till I got my AOL.   Activities, games, snacks, skills, field trips, I loved every minute of it.   Here is the entire list of my cub bling:

 

Bobcat pin

Wolf patch (with minimum arrow pts)

Bear patch "   "   "

Arrow of light

Webelos activity pins (minimum required)

Pinewood derby ribbon (semi finalist)

 

Three years, and that's it.   But what else did we cubs need?   The emphasis was on the PROGRAM and not a bunch of CHEAP GIMCRACKS.

 

It's not the cubs that have the problem.  It's the adults.   The adults are so afraid that Johnny will get upset if he doesn't get a badge like everyone else.   Well, he might and he'll get over it with the help of some kind but firm advice.   However...Johnny more than likely will surprise everyone and take the disappointment in stride.   For that matter, he may not care either way.  

 

This is more about the adults' needs/fears/goals than the cubs.' 

Edited May 13, 2016 by desertrat77

[Krampus]

Without digging up 3 year old threads I thought it was the consensus of this community that the program year ended on May 31st and that was it. If you were not done, you were not done and time to move on to the next rank.

 

In my area we begin in late August or early September, but usually we have summer activities going on from June-August. The official "Scouting Year" beings in late August with school. Rank work runs from then through late February when we have B&G...this is when ranks are awarded. If kids are not done by then -- and I don't recall more than 5 Scouts EVER being affected by this, and when they were it was usually due to parental neglect or incompetence -- we let the kids "walk" but they continued to work on the rank through the rest of the spring and summer. If not done by the last activity of the summer (usually late July or early August) THEN we pulled the plug and they moved up without rank.

 

But in all my years in the Pack, the five or so kids that never got rank were usually due to mom and/or dad not spending time enough to get the work done. It was spelled out for them, all they had to do was read, spend time and report back. Nada. Though the family could always manage 4-5 vacations a year or mom/dad several "parent getaways" during the year. Go figure.

 

Stosh, you mention the bling and the program.

 

When I came back to scouting after a long break, I was dumbfounded at how many geegaws the cub program had added over the years.   Perform a simple task--here's a patch, pin, loop, bead!

 

Exactly!! Most of the kids in my Den focused on the rank. That was a clear, understood goal. All that other stuff was just noise. We avoided all the "meeting patches" or theme patches or event patches. 

 

Because nothing teaches character and honesty in a six year old like not giving him a patch because he joined in November instead of October.

 

Fine. I'll never convince a bunch of graybeard drill sergeants that there are fundamental differences between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. Then back to the original topic, what to give the boys? Nothing. Anything you give them is an undeserved participant ribbon, and shame on you for even making the suggestion that these boys deserve such a hallow gesture.

 

You talk about honesty. Where is the honesty in giving a kid a patch he did not earn? Where is the honesty in doing 66% of the requirements but STILL getting the award? Since when is 66% a passing grade at anything? And when do you stop giving out stuff for partial effort? Is doing half of Webelos okay? Can I do 25% of the AOL or do I need to do 50% to get my patch?

 

As was said earlier, the "do" in Do Your Best means you actually have to TRY to "do" EVERY requirement. When you "do" 2 or 3 you clearly have not done your best. Let's not lower our standards that low.

 

@@SR540Beaver, please don't censor an entire post for one line you find objectionable or personal. And while you're at it, isn't calling folks "a bunch of graybeard drill sergeants" a personal attack? Let's be equal in our censorship at least, please.

[desertrat77]

 

Most of the kids in my Den focused on the rank. That was a clear, understood goal. All that other stuff was just noise. We avoided all the "meeting patches" or theme patches or event patches.

Good stuff, Krampus!

[Stosh]

I was in Cub Scouts for 4 years.

I got a Bobcat pin

I got a Wolf patch and arrows

I got a Bear patch and arrows

I moved to a new town joined a new pack

Never got Lions

Never got Webelos

Never got AOL

 

I was in Boy Scouts for 4 years

I got Tenderfoot

I got Second Class

I missed a session of summer camp

I never got First Class

I never got Star

I never got Life

I never got Eagle

 

I was in Civil Air Patrol for 3 years

I got my radio operators license

I got certified as an aerial search observer

I flew in 6 training operations and 2 actual search operations.

I survived a plane crash.

I never got bored.

 

Sometimes it's the people running the program that is the problem, if not the program itself.

 

By the way only my Bobcat pin and Radioman patch are in my bling box of mementos.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

 

In my area we begin in late August or early September, but usually we have summer activities going on from June-August. The official "Scouting Year" beings in late August with school. Rank work runs from then through late February when we have B&G...this is when ranks are awarded. If kids are not done by then -- and I don't recall more than 5 Scouts EVER being affected by this, and when they were it was usually due to parental neglect or incompetence -- we let the kids "walk" but they continued to work on the rank through the rest of the spring and summer. If not done by the last activity of the summer (usually late July or early August) THEN we pulled the plug and they moved up without rank.

 

But in all my years in the Pack, the five or so kids that never got rank were usually due to mom and/or dad not spending time enough to get the work done. It was spelled out for them, all they had to do was read, spend time and report back. Nada. Though the family could always manage 4-5 vacations a year or mom/dad several "parent getaways" during the year. Go figure.

 

 

Exactly!! Most of the kids in my Den focused on the rank. That was a clear, understood goal. All that other stuff was just noise. We avoided all the "meeting patches" or theme patches or event patches. 

 

 

You talk about honesty. Where is the honesty in giving a kid a patch he did not earn? Where is the honesty in doing 66% of the requirements but STILL getting the award? Since when is 66% a passing grade at anything? And when do you stop giving out stuff for partial effort? Is doing half of Webelos okay? Can I do 25% of the AOL or do I need to do 50% to get my patch?

 

As was said earlier, the "do" in Do Your Best means you actually have to TRY to "do" EVERY requirement. When you "do" 2 or 3 you clearly have not done your best. Let's not lower our standards that low.

 

@@SR540Beaver, please don't censor an entire post for one line you find objectionable or personal. And while you're at it, isn't calling folks "a bunch of graybeard drill sergeants" a personal attack? Let's be equal in our censorship at least, please.

 

Lighten up @@Krampus I gave up a long time ago reporting personal attacks on the forum and other un-scout-like activity, all it doesn't do any good.

[desertrat77]

@@Stosh,

 

Interesting, my Bobcat pin is one of my favorites.   A simple but very cool looking award.   I was doggone proud of it, still am.

 

And at the awards ceremony, we were held upside down while it was pinned on.

 

How did we ever survive and become productive adults after such trauma? 

Edited May 13, 2016 by desertrat77

[desertrat77]

Lighten up @@Krampus I gave up a long time ago reporting personal attacks on the forum and other un-scout-like activity, all it doesn't do any good.

 

"Lighten up Krampus" sounds quite a bit like "Lighten up Francis."

 

Paging Sergeant Hulka!   One of the best Drill Sergeants ever! 

 

Edited May 13, 2016 by desertrat77

[Krampus]

Lighten up @@Krampus I gave up a long time ago reporting personal attacks on the forum and other un-scout-like activity, all it doesn't do any good.

 

LOL, I don't mind the personal attacks. I give as good as I get. I'd just prefer that the censorship be equal. Aren't we all equal? Can't we use any bathroom we want now? 

[Stosh]

@@Stosh,

 

Interesting, my Bobcat pin is one of my favorites.   A simple but very cool looking award.   I was doggone proud of it, still am.

 

And at the awards ceremony, we were held upside down while it was pinned on.

 

How did we ever survive and become productive adults after such trauma? 

 

WHAT? You didn't need 35 years of professional therapy?  Lucky Dog!

[Stosh]

LOL, I don't mind the personal attacks. I give as good as I get. I'd just prefer that the censorship be equal. Aren't we all equal? Can't we use any bathroom we want now? 

 

That's great, I don't have to worry about whether the tree is male or female anymore.  That was getting old.

 

By the way, the moderators have a censor button they can push, but we have an ignore button we can use.    It really works great.  One might miss some good ideas along the way, but one doesn't have to wade through a ton of "stuff" to get to it.

[Krampus]

Interesting, my Bobcat pin is one of my favorites.   A simple but very cool looking award.   I was doggone proud of it, still am.

 

 

My kid still has all his CS ranks in a special place on his wall in his room.

 

All those other patches, pins, badges and bling? They are in a huge box that he's long since forgotten. But his ranks and a few special awards (historic trail awards which few folks ever earn) are prominently displayed in his room.

 

Side Note: Driving to school this AM I brought up this thread. My son is pretty smart, if I do say so myself, so I wanted his opinion. He said that he would absolutely remember getting something for nothing. He remembered a patch he got for a lock-in that he had to leave because he got sick....but he got the patch anyway. He was a TIGER!!! He's 17 now and he STILL remembers that event, the patch and that he didn't earn it. Go figure, when you don't treat kids like they're stupid they turn out not to be.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Krampus

[Stosh]

There's a major difference between self-esteem which everyone is falling all over themselves with bling and baubles, and then there's self-respect, which is a powerful force in a person's life.  Self-esteem is what everyone tells you is important about you.  Self-respect is what you know to be true about what is important about you.

 

I don't stroke little Johnny's ego with self-esteem ribbons and trophies, I simply say, "Well done, Scout." when they succeed and "I bet you don't ever do that again." when they fail.  I have always felt that this has been my "secret weapon" to ward off all the discipline issues I see with kids today.  Parents, school, sports, churches all fall prey to this self-esteem bandwagon of today.   So why am I doing Cub Scout, Boy Scout and Venturing all at the same time?  Because I don't burn out on disciple issues.  I work hard at turning entitled narcissists into productive leaders.  It's really easy to trust and respect kids when they trust and respect themselves.  OH! But STOSH you just let the kids run wild without any adult hovering supervision!!!! Yep, all the time, never regretted a minute of it either.

[JasonG172]

I'm just really glad you guys feel the same as I do!  I struggle with a lot with one of my Leaders (COR) which was my Wolf leader but she just awarded to award.  One week she awards Out Door Ethic patch to a number of the scouts (I am the LNT Trainer) and I approached her about it and stated "I don't recall any of these scouts reciting the Out Door Code to me" her reply "They recited it to me"  In our unit with rank (bobcat) only the ACM or CM can approve Bobcat.

[meyerc13]

Respectfully, I have to ask how many of you Boy Scout leaders who are chiming in on this discussion have served as a Den Leader under the new requirements that were implemented a year ago?  First off, the handbooks and leaders guides became available to us just weeks before the new program started on June 1st, 2015.  So we had no time to prepare lesson plans, build events into our annual program plan, schedule summer events to complete requirements, etc.  So for this past year, I won't fault any leaders who struggled to complete the requirements.

 

Second, unless you've studied the requirements, frankly I'm afraid a lot of you don't know what you are talking about.  In their infinite wisdom, the way some of the new requirements were written by national, a kid can't complete them as written if they miss the den meeting where the requirement was covered.

 

Third, in at least one of the requirements the BSA sets the precedence that "you may skip this requirement."  (Bear Elective Adventure:  Critter Care, requirement 4).  Why is it okay to skip some requirements but not others?  I don't know why they didn't write this as "complete x of the following" instead.

 

Fourth, by no stretch are the new requirements balanced and equal.  I am quite convinced that the Bear requirements are much more difficult than the Webelos requirements.  How does that make any sense?  Webelos is supposed to be harder, yet it isn't.

 

I'm not going to pass through some kid who missed half the meetings and didn't put in the effort, but if a kid was sick the day we did the Cub Scout Carnival and the requirement states "Help younger Cub Scouts take part in one of the events at the Cub Scout carnival," you're saying we shouldn't let that boy advance?  This isn't Boy Scouts, this is Cub Scouts, and these new requirements are a mess when it comes to things that can't be done at home, at least as the requirement is written.  Which puts Cub Scout leaders on a slippery slope - if we have to alter half of the requirements to make them achievable if a kid is sick and misses a meeting, then where do the modifications stop?

 

I really wish they had done more 'beta testing' of the requirements with experienced leaders.  If I had been given the chance, I could have fixed 99% of the problems with the new requirements in one good day of editing.

 

I can completely understand the attitude of "Do Your Best" when it comes to these requirements, because that's the position the BSA left us in.  It's unfortunate, because I suspect many of our local units are taking liberties with the camping requirements, which I think shouldn't be skipped, modified, or otherwise changed.  Like I said, the BSA put us on a slippery slope, and a good technical editor (someone with experience in Scouting and writing requirements) could have alleviated most of the problems.