Advice on how to handle this, please?

[s'morestashe]

My son has been in Boy Scouts now for about 7 months. He hasn't progressed much in rank requirements or been able to go on many outings (told not appropriate for his age/rank). There is one campout coming up where the hike in to camp is only 5 miles and apparently a moderate one, so he will get to go to that one but then it's back to the wilderness survival type of camping. The problem is I don't see how he will get rank because 1. it will take a long time for there to be enough appropriate campouts and 2. they don't cook as a patrol, but each person just brings their own cliff bars or whatever to most of the campouts.

 

My son has gone to the planning meeting (he is the only one from the new boys to go because it's held at 9:00 on a school night). He has made some suggestions but they are shot down because they are too tame or they've already done that.

 

If rank activities aren't done by the troop at meetings or campouts (because the boys who plan the activities don't need to do x,y,z), how is it done? Just at summer camp?

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

 

 

 

[Krampus]

@s'morestashe there are a lot of questions left open but I will answer you how I know most troops in my area work.

 

Most join in Jan-Mar. Within the first 2-3 months they earn Scout. It used to be faster because the requirements for Scout were so similar to Arrow of Light we could usually get them Scout in the first month.

 

Tenderfoot would take until summer camp (usually in July). We have a first year scout program that meets on one Sunday a month which goes over TF requirements in detail. We also cover requirements at camp outs; sometimes at troop meetings as part of a game or activity.

 

Second and First Class requirements are earned during the 12-18 months. Most of the SC requirements are covered at summer camp. About 1/3 of the FC requirements are covered at summer camp.

 

The boys who attend troop meetings, camp outs, summer camp and the first year scout meetings usually make First Class within 12-14 months. Boys who miss camp outs tend to fall behind because the cooking requirements are handled on those camp outs, so if you miss them you lose out. 

 

I'm curious about your comment about the activities not being age appropriate. Troops SHOULD BE putting together a program that has something to offer for ALL Scouts. For example, we recently had a float trip. The younger Scouts were allowed to go on the trip but a shorter trek; the older guys went on a longer trek. They all trained the same (swim test, float safety practice, canoe practice).

Edited May 5, 2016 by Krampus

[KenD500]

Couple of things:

1.  "or been able to go on many outings (told not appropriate for his age/rank)"  - Sounds like you should talk with the Committee Chair or the Outdoor/Camp Chair to get a list of the upcoming camp outs that are appropriate for his age/rank.  And to calmly discuss your concerns.

 

2.  "My son has gone to the planning meeting " - this is a great thing for him to do.  He should continue to provide suggestions for himself & others like him.

[JasonG172]

Wow, odd.  In a troop setting I have never heard of camp outs and such not being "age appropriate" unless they are doing some Venture activities.  Hiking 5 miles is honestly enough for Cub Scouts, and I do that twice a year.

[s'morestashe]

I think maybe all of this is because our troop is pretty small and top heavy (I mean lots of older boys and then a few new kids but not really any in the middle). I didn't know the troop did mostly high adventure stuff when we signed up. I guess he (and I) will just have to be patient. 

[Krampus]

I think maybe all of this is because our troop is pretty small and top heavy (I mean lots of older boys and then a few new kids but not really any in the middle). I didn't know the troop did mostly high adventure stuff when we signed up. I guess he (and I) will just have to be patient. 

 

Well, maybe. Are there other troops in your area that have more activities geared toward younger Scouts?

 

To be honest, unless the activities being done are not allowed under the BSA Age Appropriate Guidelines I see no reason NOT to allow your son to go. He's a member of the unit. He's paid his money. If the events are on the matrix and within his age range, then he should get the chance to attend.

 

It is up to the adults and other Scouts to make sure he's trained and ready to go. That's what Scouting is. He should NOT have to wait. He's missing out IMHO.

 

For example: We had a Philmont training trip planned. A younger Scout wanted to go. We spoke to him about gear prep, etc. He had all the gear. The pack swallowed him, but he could carry it. He went, had a blast and was only a minor hindrance. The older Scouts liked the fact he was trying. He became a de facto "mascot" of the older guys.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Krampus

[Venividi]

Don't be patient.  If no camping activities are planned in which all scouts can participate, those that cant will soon lose interest and drift away.

Is it reasonable to assume that the few new kids are all in one patrol?   They can have patrol meetings where they plan and set up patrol camp outs.  

 

If the PLC is planning troop level activities that leave out the younger scouts, and older scouts are shooting down all activity suggestions in which younger scouts could participate, they are not living to the scout law.    It would be a good topic to raise at troop committee meeting on the direction of the troop.

[Eagledad]

Its interesting situation. Someone mentioned the other day in a different thread that even the best troops go through cycles because different waves of adult and scout leaderships can change the dynamics. It sounds like you are in the low of one of those waves. But your program sounds fun and  boy run. I think you hit the nail on the head with patience. Lets see how they work this.

 

Still, it might not hurt to ask the SM about how they balance their younger scout program with the adventure and management of the rest of the troop. Maybe he needs a reminder the program needs some tuning. I was given a reminder once from a new scout who happen to also be a local bicycle racing team member. The older scouts were organizing a multiday bike trek in the state and weren't even considering younger scouts. This young scout had more miles and experience on bikes than all the scouts in the troop added together. As a result, we changed our activities qualifications policy to only consider maturity and physical ability for each specific activity.  Age and rank were removed.

 

Barry

[Krampus]

activities qualifications policy 

 

What is that? Is that in addition to the age matrix?

[fred johnson]

Your frustration is understandable.  But it's hard for us to answer as we don't know your troop or the situation.  I'd suggest talking to the scoutmaster ... AND ... talk to other regular parents.  The goal should be to understand how their scouts advanced and started camping.  Perhaps it's an age hole issue.  Perhaps it's a shift in troop dynamics.  Or perhaps it is just not understood how your troop does it.

 

BUT ... if you can't grow to understand the program, think about switching.  You are not locked into the troop.

 

Hopefully, you will grow to learn how the troop works or help it change.  But if not, ....   

[s'morestashe]

Don't be patient.  If no camping activities are planned in which all scouts can participate, those that cant will soon lose interest and drift away.

Is it reasonable to assume that the few new kids are all in one patrol?   They can have patrol meetings where they plan and set up patrol camp outs.  

 

If the PLC is planning troop level activities that leave out the younger scouts, and older scouts are shooting down all activity suggestions in which younger scouts could participate, they are not living to the scout law.    It would be a good topic to raise at troop committee meeting on the direction of the t

How would we get adult leadership to go on a patrol campout? I would like to do that if I could figure it out. There are only 3 boys. I guess I don't really understand how to make it be an official troop event (where they could get credit).

[Eagledad]

What is that? Is that in addition to the age matrix?

It was, but it went away along with the age matrix. Except where the age matrix is required, which for us was only Philmont. 

 

Barry

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm....   odd.

 

I generally tell parents of first-year lads not to get too uptight about advancement as long as their son is goin' on trips and having fun.   Part of being a first year scout is just watching and figurin' out how things work, eh?  We often forget as adults how hard it is to break into a new community.   It's only after yeh start to feel really comfortable and a part of da community that yeh have enough brain cycles to start workin' on advancing within that community.

 

So from what you're sayin', I'm a bit more interested in his lack of participation than in his lack of rank advancement.

 

Can I ask how many "good for all ages" outings there have been since your boy joined?   Are we talkin' one a month, one every other month, etc.?

 

What are the nature of the outing restrictions?  Can yeh give us a few more examples?   Is it stuff like "only swimmers can come on the whitewater raft trip" or "you can come on the backpacking weekend only if yeh come to the backpack checkout meeting"?   Or somethin' else?     What particular restrictions are keepin' your son from participatin'?

 

Can yeh tell us about your Scoutmaster and the ASMs?   Are they all parents of older high school aged boys who seem most interested in their sons' activities?   Or somethin' else?

 

How often are Courts of Honor held?

 

Sometimes what can happen in some troops is that they have a bad experience with a few less physically fit or more homesick young boys, so they swing the pendulum way toward the side of limitin' young lads to what they are certain every young one can handle.  That's natural, eh?  It's also a form of being kind.    I usually gently nudge 'em back toward usin' the older lads to coach and support the young ones more strongly. 

 

My guess is that if your son keeps comin' out frequently and tryin' to contribute in a positive way, the older boys will adjust and say "Joey is really cool, he's OK to come along" and your son will be in 7th heaven.  One way to spur that can be if your son has identified an older scout he likes (maybe his PL or TG?) to have him ask that boy if he can come on da next "restricted" trip, or if the older boy can help him learn what he needs to learn to be able to do that?    It's one thing to propose an idea to a group; it's another thing to ask an individual for help.   Yeh might get shot down on da first, but most likely you'll find a friend and ally with da second.

 

Beavah

 

[Beavah]

How would we get adult leadership to go on a patrol campout? I would like to do that if I could figure it out. There are only 3 boys. I guess I don't really understand how to make it be an official troop event (where they could get credit).

 

Yah, hmmmmm...

 

Maybe there's a part of this where you need to do the Apple Computer thing and "Think Different", @s'morestashe.

 

If you're comin' up from Cub Scouts, you might have a notion that advancement is somethin' that proceeds like school, eh?   Everyone works along on things together, boys have to do things where they "get credit", etc.  

 

Boy Scout Advancement works differently.   It's more individually focused, and at each boy's own pace.  Yeh need to think of it a lot more like being a video game than being like school.   It's not about getting credit so much as it is about having fun blastin' away aliens until yeh develop da skill to get to the next level.   Maybe along the way yeh get a few hints or helps from someone who was once stuck on that same level.

 

Patrol outings are somethin' boys can do on their own, eh?  Get some friends and go bikin' or whatnot.   Patrol campouts these days need a couple of adults around off in a corner, just one registered leader and a willing parent.   Patrol outings are scouting activities.  Many of us might call 'em the best scouting activities!  So they "count" in terms of nights camping and such, though honestly I've never seen a lad who had really learned the T-2-1 skills who hadn't done way more nights camping than the minimum, so I wouldn't worry about countin' nights if I were you.

 

There's also lots of room for you to have fun as a parent, eh?   You can practice foldin' a flag at home, or have your son buy food and cook dinner once a week (we all make extreme sacrifices for our kids ).  Send him for swim lessons, challenge him to light fires in your backyard, let him sleep out under the stars at grandpa's farm.   Bet him that he can't do 20 pushups or run a mile without stoppin'... then challenge him to better.   Scoutin' is double the fun if your parents let yeh play the game at home, too... and then he can be the one that impresses the older boys by beatin' 'em doin' pullups or ripping off the best chicken cordon bleu on the next campout.   

 

All yeh need to do is remember it's his game to play.   Don't tell him what to do.   Don't give anything more than the simplest of hints.   Just give him permission, and give him challenges, and let him blast away at da levels until they're easy.

 

Beavah

[T2Eagle]

I agree with Beav that advancement isn't the issue participation is.  With very few exceptions a Troop should be providing an opportunity for every scout to camp once a month.  There are a lot of ways to do this, most troops just do things that everyone in the troop can both handle and enjoy, Krampus' troop provides a good model of having varying levels of activity within the same outing.  Troops that support, truly support, patrols camping independently of the troop is another, but truly support means that the leaders, SM, ASMs, CM etc,. provide the necessary adult participation and troop resources for those trips not just a lip service of "sure, you can do that if you figure everything out for it."

 

Your son's role is to understand what his scout leaders tell him and he should try to understand the program as they see it.  You can have conversations with the adult leadership; see if what you have experienced is an anomaly or is this the pattern you can expect to continue.

 

The point of Boy Scouts is to achieve our aims through a camping program.  If you're not camping how can you be achieving those aims?  The BSA talks about first class/first year, and points to statistics that show that scouts who engage in advancement at that level stay with the program longer.  A year is ambitious but doable with our troop, but I have always thought that what underlies the statistics is that advancement is a natural outgrowth of camping, if you camp you will learn the skills needed to advance, and so it is the going camping, the getting out in the woods and having fun, that gets young men to engage in and stay with the program.   

 

If the troop your in isn't providing your son the opportunities he needs to do scouting then I strongly encourage him, with you, to check out other troops in the area that may be better able to provide him the opportunities the program should have to offer.