I wonder how long it will take BSA to ban kickball?

[qwazse]

Why must you read something into the post.  As far back as 1993 youth and adults were breaking there neck because they used a product not intended for their use.    

 

Flash forward to a game someone made up and labels as kickball.   Same risk, exposure is there.  Probably more so today than in 1993 due to increase in obese kids and adults.    

 

Richard

 

Solution: put the runners in bubble balls as they round the bases!

Edited April 27, 2016 by qwazse

[Krampus]

Why must you read something into the post.  As far back as 1993 youth and adults were breaking there neck because they used a product not intended for their use.    

 

Flash forward to a game someone made up and labels as kickball.   Same risk, exposure is there.  Probably more so today than in 1993 due to increase in obese kids and adults.    

 

Richard

 

Same could be said for those giant water front "blob launchers". Those are intended to have similarly sized/weighted individuals use them; not 125 lbs Timmy launched by 185 lbs dad. Happens all the time, in Scout camps across the country.

[Stosh]

@@RichardB

 

Richard, I wasn't trying to read anything into your comments.  The point I was making was there is nothing inherently wrong with real kickball, but these people found a way to make it way too much fun than just plain old kickball.  It has a tremendous amount of fun factor in it, but you are correct like anything else in life it is inherently dangerous.  I know of friend and another acquaintance that are quadriplegics having had their necks broken in sanctioned high school wrestling matches.  Does that mean we need to ban high school wrestling?  I know of a ton of people who's lives have been altered to varying degrees because of "an old football injury".  Does that mean we ban football?  When I was in Little League we wore batter helmets, in sandlot ball we did not.  Kids still got hurt doing both.  Do we know and do our boys participate in alpine skiing?  Even recreational skiing is dangerous.

 

How far does one need to go to protect people?  The point of the post was to show that maybe the more fun the people are having the greater the possibility that BSA may ban it. 

[desertrat77]

In addition to Qwazse's excellent bubble ball suggestion, I'll offer one more:     "Teens and adults:  head first slide, you are out automatically.   Feet first only."

 

If the rules are few and simple, they'll be followed.

 

Stationed at a base north of the Arctic Circle, we had a softball field with no grass.  Rocks mostly.   Sliding injuries kept folks from doing their job (ie broken leg).   Leadership's new rule:   slide and you were out.   You could overrun any base, as if it were first base.  Quick fix, easily understood.   The games continued.

 

Banning fun things is nothing but an escape hatch for weak leaders who cannot make sound assessments or decisions.   Tweak the activity if you must, but banning outright is silly.

 

At the end of the day, the pro-ban crowd is simply projecting their own fears, and preferences, onto everyone else.   No bubble ball, no waterguns, no water balloons...we have insight into the decision makers' mind.  

Edited April 27, 2016 by desertrat77

[Krampus]

In addition to Qwazse's excellent bubble ball suggestion, I'll offer one more:     "Teens and adults:  head first slide, you are out automatically.   Feet first only."

 

Exactly. Because if you slide in head first you're likely to turn in to Pete Rose, and who wants that? 

 

 

 

Am hoping BSA does not outlaw burro races before we get to Philmont because PETA says it's cruel.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Krampus

[desertrat77]

Exactly. Because if you slide in head first you're likely to turn in to Pete Rose, and who wants that? 

 

 

 

Am hoping BSA does not outlaw burro races before we get to Philmont because PETA says it's cruel.

Good old Charlie Hustle!   His head-first slides were never pretty, but they were fun to watch!

 

I think the Philmont burro races are safe for now...PETA is too busy protesting the milking of cows.

 

An excellent name for a minor league team:  Philmont Burros.

Edited April 27, 2016 by desertrat77

[perdidochas]

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/1993/WHAM-O-Backyard-Water-Slides-Are-Dangerous-For-Adults-And-Teenagers/

 

PROBLEM: The WHAM-O slides are designed for use by children only. Use by adults and teens has the potential to result in neck injury and paralysis. Because of their weight and height, adults and teenagers who dive onto the water slide may hit and abruptly stop in such a way that could cause permanent spinal cord injury, resulting in quadriplegia or paraplegia. The slider's forward momentum drives the body into the neck and compresses the spinal cord. Kransco reports that seven adults and a 13-year-old teenager suffered neck injuries or paralysis while using WHAM-O slides. 

 

Well, when my sons were little, we had a slip'n'slide in the backyard. After once using it from a standing position, I never did it again--gravity is stronger the older you get.  I would however, do it from a crouch, and it was much less stressful on the body. 

[perdidochas]

Same could be said for those giant water front "blob launchers". Those are intended to have similarly sized/weighted individuals use them; not 125 lbs Timmy launched by 185 lbs dad. Happens all the time, in Scout camps across the country.

 

It's much more fun to have 125 lb Timmy launched by 185 lb dad :-) 

[Krampus]

It's much more fun to have 125 lb Timmy launched by 185 lb dad :-) 

 

Agreed.

 

It's also more fun to throw big water balloons that small ones. It's more fun to hose guys down with super soakers when it's 102F in the shade than swim in the 89F lake.

[desertrat77]

It's much more fun to have 125 lb Timmy launched by 185 lb dad :-) 

 

 

Agreed.

 

It's also more fun to throw big water balloons that small ones. It's more fun to hose guys down with super soakers when it's 102F in the shade than swim in the 89F lake.

 

 

Lots of laughter and good times.   Good exercise, swimming/running/dodging.   After retreat and evening chow, have a root beer float at the trading post and shoot the breeze.  

Edited April 27, 2016 by desertrat77

[Krampus]

After retreat and evening chow, have a root beer float at the trading post and shoot the breeze.  

 

You know, if the BSA is looking for things to banish, I've got one: Energy drinks!

 

At our local council camps the Scout staff cannot serve coffee. They certainly cannot drink it. HOWEVER, for sale at the Trading Post is Monster, Red Bull, Jolt and assorted other caffeine-laden drinks that would put the weak, dark water the mess hall calls coffee to shame.

 

"No, Bobby, you cannot have a cup of coffee, but head on down to the Trading Post and get yourself a Dreamcicle with a Red Bull chaser."

[NJCubScouter]

I know it is "politically incorrect" to say so, but I think RichardB has a good point on this one.

[desertrat77]

You know, if the BSA is looking for things to banish, I've got one: Energy drinks!

 

At our local council camps the Scout staff cannot serve coffee. They certainly cannot drink it. HOWEVER, for sale at the Trading Post is Monster, Red Bull, Jolt and assorted other caffeine-laden drinks that would put the weak, dark water the mess hall calls coffee to shame.

 

"No, Bobby, you cannot have a cup of coffee, but head on down to the Trading Post and get yourself a Dreamcicle with a Red Bull chaser."

So the scouts are forbidden from drinking Folgers, but they can swill those high sugar/high caffeine energy drinks?   That's amazing.

 

Here's my cynical thought:   the trading post makes money from snacks and beverages.   And the energy drink crowd tends to chain-drink them.

[Beavah]

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/1993/WHAM-O-Backyard-Water-Slides-Are-Dangerous-For-Adults-And-Teenagers/

 

PROBLEM: The WHAM-O slides are designed for use by children only. Use by adults and teens has the potential to result in neck injury and paralysis. Because of their weight and height, adults and teenagers who dive onto the water slide may hit and abruptly stop in such a way that could cause permanent spinal cord injury, resulting in quadriplegia or paraplegia. The slider's forward momentum drives the body into the neck and compresses the spinal cord. Kransco reports that seven adults and a 13-year-old teenager suffered neck injuries or paralysis while using WHAM-O slides. 

 

Yah, RichardB, sometimes yeh worry me mate.

 

I'm sure yeh realize that injurin' a grand total of 8 people total over all da user-days of use of slip-and-slides represents an injury rate that's statistically trivial.  Also makes a good data point for @@Stosh's view about excessive government.

 

As a young lad, I had a friend who broke his back while sleddin' down a hill.   He had a history of juvenile rheumatoid arthritis and was a bigger fellow.   He hit a jump with some speed and landed hard and broke his back.   It was a freak thing, and he recovered fine.

 

Old folks and even young folks with some medical issues are susceptible to injuries from fallin' down and hittin' the ground, eh?   And lots of folks suffer head, neck and back injuries from sleddin'.   Way more than from slip-and-slides.   In fact, we've killed a few scouts that way, eh?

 

Still, we haven't banned sledding.   Why not?   I hope it's because we recognize in da bigger scheme of things sleddin' isn't that significant a risk.

 

Slip-and-slides, even less so, eh?  But nuthin' is risk free.

 

Awareness of risks?  Now that's a good thing.    Are yeh ever goin' to tell us what da risks are from bubble ball?   Da risk of us old critters lookin' goofy?

 

Beavah

[walk in the woods]

I know it is "politically incorrect" to say so, but I think RichardB has a good point on this one.

Richard may have a point but it's not clear that it's been proven.  

 

The article he referenced says:

 

PRODUCT: Approximately 9 million WHAM-O backyard water slides, manufactured by Kransco and WHAM-O. The water slides were sold nationwide from 1961 through February 1992 under the following names: Slip 'N Slide, Super Slip 'N Slide, Slip 'N Splash, White Water Rapids, Fast Track Racers, and Wet Banana. 

So if we just round to 30 years of sales that's 300,000 units/year.

 

The article also points out:

Kransco reports that seven adults who used WHAM-O slides suffered neck injuries, quadriplegia, or paraplegia. A 13-year- old teenager suffered a fractured neck while using a WHAM-O slide. The incidents occurred between 1973 and 1991. 

So that's 8 injuries over 18 years or roughly 1/2 a person injury/year spread out over 300,000 new units plus how ever many previously sold units still in use.  I'm willing to believe the toys are unsafe and should be banned, but, what's the accident rate, how does it compare with other things we do in the program, etc.  

 

The article also says:

 

CPSC and Kransco urge adults and teenagers NOT to use the WHAM-O backyard slides. Consumers should read the warnings and instructions on the box and on the toy itself which state that the product is NOT intended for adult use. Adults should instruct children how to use the slides safely. 

So why not allow them in Cub Scouts?