Getting rid of parents

[Krampus]

@@Cambridgeskip 

 

Harsh?  I think you Brits are a lot more courteous than us Damnyankees.    I take it you've never seen any of our video clips on parents "talking" to Little League or Soccer referees.  These people have blood in their eyes as they do the She-Bear protective thing for their dear little cubs.

@@Stosh, in a previous life I was a football (soccer) referee in Germany, England and the US. Did a few international youth tournaments too. Comparing the parents from these countries and how they react to other players, teams and match officials I can tell you -- hands down and a few light years distance between first and second place -- the winners of worst, most vocal and abusive football parents are the Americans.

 

It is not even close. Second would be the parents from the north of England. Manchester comes to mind, Nottingham less so. Easiest of the lot would be the Germans, because if you can point to where it is in the rule book they go home quietly because, well, you showed them the rule and that's good enough for them.

[Eagledad]

Teaching parents how to be observers is just part of a scouters responsibility. I imagine even Badon Powell struggled with it. Helping parents stepping back little by little to give their kids independence is one of those extra 5 minute bonuses talks I gave in my Scoutmaster Specific Class.

 

It takes practice and some scouters are just better at theses things, but typically the sooner you talk to parents, the better the listen and accept what you are saying.

 

Barry

[Krampus]

I found @@Stosh's t-shirt...

 

https://www.teezily.com/old-man-with-scoutingskills

 

[Stosh]

Oh, goodie, that one beats my old "Age and Treachery will win out over Youth and Exuberance any day".

[TAHAWK]

Only had a dad want to "help" put up a tent once in 7.5 years as an SM.  I told him, "We need to have the boys put up the tents so they can earn their badges."  He replied, "Oh."  That was that.  Probably saved him from embarrassment.

 

In case that didn't work, I had already decided on, "We require the boys to put up their own tents."   Whatever it took beyond that..

 

Frankly, hovering parents had not been part of my first "life" in Scouting in California.  Summer Camp was 100 Scouts and two-three commissioned Scouters.   When I started up again in Ohio and saw all the parents who wanted to go to Summer Camp, I was amazed.   Amazement didn't stop me from keeping them away from the patrols.  The council camp helped with adults programs, such as "Nap On Safely."

Next year we went to a camp with cold no showers and an hour from the nearest very small town. Want coffee? Boil your own. Interest in attending camp with son fell sharply.

[Krampus]

Oh, goodie, that one beats my old "Age and Treachery will win out over Youth and Exuberance any day".

 

I've seen another one that says something like: "I am old and sleep well in the back country. I am old and stringy, you are young and chewy."

 

[MattR]

And hints on subtle ways of getting rid of parents without being rude?

 

One approach I've used is to ask the scouts, with the offending parent standing right there, whether they need help. If they say no, case closed, because confidence from the scouts will shut down a parent faster than you can. If they say yes then repeat by asking the older scouts nearby if they need help showing how to help the younger scouts. They will never say no. After they say they don't need help you can then talk to the parent and say something along the lines of: See, they don't need any help. Of course, this is where subtle British humor comes to play where you simultaneously insult someone while being very polite and cheerful at the same time. Please post the video as this should be fun. There's an idea! Next time this happens pull out your cell phone and start recording. When the parent asks what you're doing  just say you want to post this on scouter.com of how best to not help.

 

I've only had to go this far a couple of times. Usually a direct, polite approach along the lines of I know you can do this better than the scouts, but they need to learn this on their own, is more than enough.

[ianwilkins]

Ask parent: "Are you going to be there every single time they need to put a tent up?"

Answer will have to be no.

"Then they need to learn how to do it on their own."

[Cambridgeskip]

@@Cambridgeskip 

 

Harsh?  I think you Brits are a lot more courteous than us Damnyankees.    I take it you've never seen any of our video clips on parents "talking" to Little League or Soccer referees.  These people have blood in their eyes as they do the She-Bear protective thing for their dear little cubs. 

 

We live in a salesmanship culture here in America.  Our people don't take NO for an answer on things they tend to be passionate about and for some this applies to being a parent.  So now we have young boys learning to be independent and breaking away from that parental control.  Once the boy gets a taste of the world outside the nest, he's gonna want to fly and Mamma Bird doesn't always think that's a good idea.  Dad's usually have enough sense not to get in Mom's way either. 

 

So there's going to be all kinds of pushing the envelop in the BSA program of which there are parents who will find that difficult to simply stand by and watch.  

 

Yes, your age structuring is different than ours, but one must also remember that by the time the boys are 14 most of them, at least in my troops, have had extensive leadership training and opportunity.  My older boys may hang on to the cherry POR's, but for the most part focus on high adventure, working on Eagle and hanging out with their buddies.  By the time most of my boys turn 14, they can all say, "been there, done that."  I start my boys very early with leadership training and my NSP's generally have their own PL's, APL's QM, Scribe etc. being mentored by a functional TG.  After a year they are expected to stand on their own two feet and for the most part do.  An occasional hiccup or two, but by 18 months, they do just fine.  That puts them in the 12 year old age bracket with two more years to work on fine-tuning their leadership.  I have had 13 year olds running the entire troop popcorn sale fund raiser and each boy by the time they get out of the NSP have taken the lead on some form of service project for the patrol/troop.  My NSP earn the right to be called Regular Patrol.

 

With that time-line defined that tight, I do not have time to deal with interfering parents that will do nothing but slow down that process.

 

On the very first meeting with parents they are told up-front what is going to happen and if they don't like it, we help them find a different troop.  Every parent/guardian is ALWAYS welcomed to visit any and all activities of the troop AS OBSERVERS ONLY.  They have that right as a parent, but they don't have a right to interfere in the lives of boys that are not their son(s) and attempts to do so will be addressed on the spot by the PL's  If that doesn't work, the the SM is called (At this point we don't have an SPL).

 

At first there are a few parents who will test the waters of the troop, but they learn quickly.

 

By the way, with the Arrow of Light Award, there are Cub Scouts crossing over into the NSP's at age 10+ so that we can have leaders well on their way to great things by the time they are 11.  It doesn't happen over-night, but he evolution of New Patrol to Regular Patrol happens as naturally as the evolution of the Regular patrol into Venturing Patrol around the age of 14-15.  No fanfare, just comfort in knowing where one stands in the troop structure.

 

I think we're talking at cross purposes.... by "harsh" I meant not wanting the parent in question involved. Not being fully up to speed with how the troop runs the first time he drops his son on camp doesn't stop him being a potentially useful body.

[blw2]

A couple months back, my son's troop was having their first camp out since the new group of scouts had joined (my son and one other beat the bulk of the group over by a month or so)

The camp was in the woods behind our CO, so it was a nice and easy drop-off.

So that night, I dropped off my son and went over to shoot the bull with the SM and some of the other committee folks and let my son haul his stuff in the woods on his own.  I never even walked back to the camp site.

Meanwhile, it was almost funny that pretty much all of the other parents were busy helping to tote stuff, going in mumbling something about that they should go back and help little so-and-so get his tent set up..... or they need to go check  to make sure he's ok, and so on...

I felt pretty good about the whole situation.  I could tell that my son couldn't have been happier.... and I shared a laugh with some of the other scouters about the whole thing

[blw2]

oh, another story this thread reminds me of...

my son was given an envelope to put spending cash in, for an upcoming school band field trip.  On the envelope I was to write his name, the contact name and phone number, and so on. 

1st, I gave it to him to fill out

then, he came to the part were I was supposed to fill in any special direction to the chaperone (as in he's not allowed to buy souvenirs, or no candy, or whatever...)

So he asked what he was supposed to put in there.

I took it from him and wrote something such as this;

"If he gets sick from eating too much candy, or if he spends all his money before dinner and goes hungry, it is his own fault."

Gave him back the envelope.

[Krampus]

Meanwhile, it was almost funny that pretty much all of the other parents were busy helping to tote stuff, going in mumbling something about that they should go back and help little so-and-so get his tent set up..... or they need to go check  to make sure he's ok, and so on...

I felt pretty good about the whole situation.  I could tell that my son couldn't have been happier.... and I shared a laugh with some of the other scouters about the whole thing

 

Had a similar issue two weeks back. Texas-sized storm front moving in over night. SPL and PLs got together and told everyone to pack up that night, put their rain gear on top so that we could bug out first thing and reduce the impact of the (torrential) heavy rain on our gear, etc.

 

Morning comes, rain in the distance, the unit packs up and heads home. 4-5 Scouts did not do as their PL advised (they the PLs check again and reminded these guys SEVERAL times to get their rain gear out).

 

Get to the home base and are unloading. Torrential rains had arrived. Everyone dry except the 4-5 guys who didn't listen. Had two moms come over and hold umbrellas over their little yum-yums so that they would not get more wet (they looked like drowned cats already, futile gesture on mom's part).

 

SPL invited the moms to stay dry in her car. Told her, "I told Bobby and Timmy to get their rain gear ready five times since last night. They said they forgot to even pack it. Maybe getting wet now they will remember the gear next camp out." Mom went back to the car.

 

I love it when the process works like that.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Krampus

[Stosh]

Give a boy a fish..... Teach a boy to fish.....

 

It works as long as one doesn't mess with it!

 

Sometimes I wonder who needs more teaching, the boys or the parents......

Edited April 27, 2016 by Stosh

[qwazse]

Give a boy a fish..... Teach a boy to fish.....

 

It works as long as one doesn't mess with it!

 

Sometimes I wonder who needs more teaching, the boys or the parents......

Last meeting, former SM and I spent as much time talking a crossover mom "off the ledge" about her boy going to summer camp as we did coaching the boys with fire starting and knife sharpening.

Her son chose to attend the camp of the "old guard" patrol instead of the camp all but one of his den-mates were attending.

[Krampus]

Sometimes I wonder who needs more teaching, the boys or the parents......

 

Rhetorical question, I know...but after all this time @@Stosh you can't really we wondering this. The answer is clearly the parents...not all of them, but more than expected.