Another Reason Why Adults Should Not Do What The Scouts Can Do Themselves

[Eagle94-A1]

Well it's going to be an interesting meeting tomorrow. As you know, 2 weeks ago, the NSP was having issues  getting a menu, shopping list, and duty roster done in the allotted time. So an ASM jumped in and came up with a menu, shopping list, and duty roster for the camp out for them. No one looked at the stuff until tonite when the APL was suppose to call and tell folks how much to bring. APL calls my son panicking because the shopping list had no prices on it, just a list of items. Since the adult took charge, everyone in the patrol assumed he also put prices on the shopping list.

 

Things learned by two members of the patrol so far.

 

1. even when everything is "done," double check to make sure it is complete.

 

2. Never assume.

 

Things I hope adults learn tomorrow

 

1 NEVER DO SOMETHING FOR THE SCOUTS THAT THEY CAN DO THEMSELVES!  The adult will deprive the Scouts of a learning opportunity, and things will get messed up.

[desertrat77]

1 NEVER DO SOMETHING FOR THE SCOUTS THAT THEY CAN DO THEMSELVES!  The adult will deprive the Scouts of a learning opportunity, and things will get messed up.

Truth!

[Adamcp]

Absolutely.  Our troop recently had story of similar content. We've made some strides in the area of boy's being responsible for camping duties this past year. In the past, adults used to buy the food (sigh). This year+, new initiative. All available members of the patrols meet up at the supermarket to buy the food together from their planned menu instead. We have rechargeable gift cards from the supermarket, so the treasurer has an easier job of keeping track, but they boys still are responsible to stay on budget since they cannot spend more than funds on the card.

 

Last campout, as far as I can gather it, my son's patrol (he is PL) left the ground beef, bacon, and butter (all the good stuff!) at the supermarket when they left. They had their other items. I think they just left that bag. Tents were already up and home was far behind when they noticed their error. Each boy had taken home a few bags, so they only realized their error at the camp site.

 

This whole year+, I have been proud of their efforts to cook with minimal adult intervention of any kind.  I was far more proud of how they solved this problem. While noticeably upset about their error in leaving the food behind, the scouts did not come to the adults to solve the problem. They figured out their solutions on their own. They reorganized their menus to accommodate the food that they had, and asked the other patrol to share some food.  No one starved. The rest of their camping activities (including a night hike!) went off without a hitch.  And I think they were glad they were able to stay independent.

 

And the adult leaders happened to leave their Coleman stove home as well. So the scouts weren't the only one who had to adapt and be flexible! 

[Stosh]

Well it's going to be an interesting meeting tomorrow. As you know, 2 weeks ago, the NSP was having issues  getting a menu, shopping list, and duty roster done in the allotted time. So an ASM jumped in and came up with a menu, shopping list, and duty roster for the camp out for them. No one looked at the stuff until tonite when the APL was suppose to call and tell folks how much to bring. APL calls my son panicking because the shopping list had no prices on it, just a list of items. Since the adult took charge, everyone in the patrol assumed he also put prices on the shopping list.

 

Things learned by two members of the patrol so far.

 

1. even when everything is "done," double check to make sure it is complete.

 

2. Never assume.

 

Things I hope adults learn tomorrow

 

1 NEVER DO SOMETHING FOR THE SCOUTS THAT THEY CAN DO THEMSELVES!  The adult will deprive the Scouts of a learning opportunity, and things will get messed up.

 

I really don't see where the boys missed a learning opportunity here. 

 

1) They learned never to trust an adult to follow through with their interruptions and confusing of any issue.

2) They learned to Jump in and get it done before some interfering adult comes and makes thing worse.

3) They learned that just because one is over 18 doesn't make them any more capable than they are.

4) They learned that just because some adult started the process doesn't mean they will follow through.

 

Prices on the shopping list?  How's that?  Never heard of that.  The boys just collect $15-20 from each boy going and that's the budget.   They have to shop within the budget, no exceptions.  Any money left over is tossed into the patrol kitty.  The boys don't need a debit card, the patrol Scribe handles the cash transaction with the shoppers.  They don't have enough money for the food?  Too bad, figure it out.

 

This is a patrol level process.  They have been taught according to the handbook.  But eventually as they get good at it, they merely tell the GrubMaster what they want and he sets the fee and the shopper and Scribe take care of it.  I don't think our boys have ever used a patrol roster of any kind.  They have to have one posted at summer camp on the camp bulletin board but after it's posted it's ignored.

 

In as much as I hate paperwork, so do the boys.  They keep it to a minimum.

[Eagle94-A1]

Agree about the Scouts; I bet their will be some discussion about that tomorrow when they get together.

 

But what I really hope is that the adults learn their #1. I have hope because we did have a meeting, and change to a more Scout led troop is in progress.

 

Regarding shopping.

 

Way I was taught way back when was when you come up with a shopping list, you put down an estimate of the price next to the item to get a more accurate cost  Now those who have actually shopped for food can do a pretty good estimate of the prices. Unfortunately we do have some Scouts who haven't: mom or grandma have shopped for them.

 

One trick I learned to keep accurate prices  was keep the receipts and look it up:)

 

Another trick I taught my son and he taught others, go to "the middle of the road grocery store" i.e one that doesn't have the highest prices, nor the lowest ones, get a good list, then shop where the sales are.  One Scout actually was $30 under budget because he not only went where the sales were, but also clipped coupons. Mom and dad taught him how to shop, and all dad did was drive to the store!

 

Since the patrols are disbanding, one thing the two patrols with kitties decided to do was spend their kitty money. Both patrols paid for their patrol members to go to camporee.So right now there is only $1 left in any of the kitties. New patrols will start fresh.

[qwazse]

Nice thing about having a mom who stocked for Armageddon (and who had spent the last 30 years of her life feeding ravenous siblings), was that I didn't have to shop much. We all just volunteered to raid our respective cupboards. I remember shopping for some staples, but I don't remember collecting $ for it.

 

Every PLC is different, and they need to define their style. If they review every month how the previous weekend's logistics served them, that will happen. But, that won't happen if adults intervene.

 

Regarding prices ... our boys have smart phones and our stores have shopping apps! If I dare brag about getting a decent cut of meat from the local butcher, they can tell me how they can get it fresh-caught and flash frozen from Patagonia with a special code to waive shipping fees for half what I paid. They might even be able to have it delivered by drone to the trail head!

 

I can't think of anything I can do that our scouts couldn't do better after a couple of tries. They just need the time "at bat."

[Stosh]

My boys keep records of the meals they eat.

 

Boys in the patrol say they wan XYZ stew for supper.

 

1) Grubmaster pulls out the one page sheet on the XYZ Stew.

 

2) It has the ingredients

 

3) It has the instructions

 

4) It has the equipment list for the QM

 

5) It has the shopping list for the shopper

 

6) It has a spot to mark how many to feed

 

7) Shopper makes portion adjustments and calculates current cost.

 

8) Reports this to the Scribe to collect the money.

 

Scouts want Mountain Man Breakfast

 

GrubMaster repeats steps 1 through 8

 

Scouts want Mac & Cheese with Spam

 

Grubmaster repeats steps 1 through 8

 

Once the boys have all the menus they like they can redo any of them in a heartbeat and that gives them time to work up a new recipe to try.   This is usually done by the boys in the NSP who are working on advancement and need to plan out a menu.  A template sheet is given to the boy to copy his favorite recipe on and it gets added to the patrol cookbook.

 

If the recipe is a bummer, it becomes tinder for the cook fire.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Stosh

[Eagle94-A1]

WELL another reason appeared tonite to give me another reason why the PLC and a few other Scouts should be able to sign off on the S-T-2-1 requirements instead of adults: we had a Scout who had a BOR for Second and First Class last week, who had his mom sign off on requirements, and not one of the adult leaders.  SM glanced over to see signatures, had a conference, and passed him along to the BOR. Was able to pass the 2 BORs. It was only after the BOR when the SM went to update the troop records was it caught that mom was signing off. Took about 20 minutes of asking adults, asking the Scout 2 times, and him not remembering, when SM decided to check mom's signature onteh application. Yep, she was signing off.

 

This is the mom who drops off and goes. Never attends any events, never attends any parents' meeting, etc. And when we did meet with her to discuss an issue we had with her son, it wasn't his fault, butthe other scout's and the medication he's on.

[Krampus]

WELL another reason appeared tonite to give me another reason why the PLC and a few other Scouts should be able to sign off on the S-T-2-1 requirements instead of adults: we had a Scout who had a BOR for Second and First Class last week, who had his mom sign off on requirements, and not one of the adult leaders.  SM glanced over to see signatures, had a conference, and passed him along to the BOR. Was able to pass the 2 BORs. It was only after the BOR when the SM went to update the troop records was it caught that mom was signing off. Took about 20 minutes of asking adults, asking the Scout 2 times, and him not remembering, when SM decided to check mom's signature onteh application. Yep, she was signing off.

 

This is the mom who drops off and goes. Never attends any events, never attends any parents' meeting, etc. And when we did meet with her to discuss an issue we had with her son, it wasn't his fault, butthe other scout's and the medication he's on.

What does this SM do during the SMCs? Shouldn't he have done the SC SMC then bor, then FC SMC and bor?

 

That's two chances to catch this BEFOREHAND!!!

[Stosh]

How does a PL not notice this boy''s progress when he's not signing off and he's not checking the adult signatures that should be checking off.  Doesn't sound like the PL is functional.  If PL isn't checking, the SM isn't checking, the BOR isn't checking/reviewing, who's watching the hen house? 

 

Sounds like the whole train is off the tracks.

[Krampus]

WELL another reason appeared tonite to give me another reason why the PLC and a few other Scouts should be able to sign off on the S-T-2-1 requirements instead of adults: we had a Scout who had a BOR for Second and First Class last week, who had his mom sign off on requirements, and not one of the adult leaders.

Curious, what are you going to do? Will the ranks remain or are you going to re-review him to make sure he knows the stuff? The GTA gives you the cover, but honestly, the SM should have caught this. He sounds like he either has too much on his plate or is asleep at the wheel.

[qwazse]

Part of the SMC is asking the boy who signed off on requirements and making sure I recognize the initials. It's not merely to validate the boy's progress, but to find out from the boy who did a good job teaching/testing.

[Stosh]

This could have easily been avoided had the PL been monitoring and signing off on the boy's rank progress.  Obviously having adults involved, trying to monitor ALL the scouts instead of a PL focusing on just a few makes a big difference.

 

No many boy-led Eagle Mills out there..... just sayin'.

[Eagle94-A1]

What does this SM do during the SMCs? Shouldn't he have done the SC SMC then bor, then FC SMC and bor?

 

That's two chances to catch this BEFOREHAND!!!

 

Actually 1 SMC and BOR can be done for Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class. That's because there are no longer time requirements between S-T-2-1 as they were prior to 1989.

 

As for SMCs, the SMis not retesting them, but having a conversation about goals, experiences, etc.

 

 

How does a PL not notice this boy''s progress when he's not signing off and he's not checking the adult signatures that should be checking off.  Doesn't sound like the PL is functional.  If PL isn't checking, the SM isn't checking, the BOR isn't checking/reviewing, who's watching the hen house? 

 

Sounds like the whole train is off the tracks.

 

Agree, PLs are NOT doing their job IMHO. Currently only adults are authorized to sign off on rank. That will be changing shortly. I pushed for the PLS to have that authority, and with some compromise, it's going to happen in the next month.

 

Compromise is that the Scout signing off has to show competency in the skill being taught and signed off. ALSO whatever skills being taught won't be signed off until used on a camp out. I'm good with that.

 

SM is overwhelmed. He is dividing up the duties among the SMs now. One ASM is handling advancement records.  As for the BOR, the commitee is A) not that active and B) really need to get some BOR training. The folks involved are used to old school retesting, with  a box of supplies for the Scouts to use during the BOR to demonstrate the skills.  They are having some challenges with how they are suppose to be done today.

 

 

Curious, what are you going to do? Will the ranks remain or are you going to re-review him to make sure he knows the stuff? The GTA gives you the cover, but honestly, the SM should have caught this. He sounds like he either has too much on his plate or is asleep at the wheel.

 

 

That's going to be a challenge. If he was staying in out troop, we would have him redo everything Mom signed off on. However he will be leaving at the end of the school year. So we will be having him do as much as possible prior to leaving.  But the records have been submitted.

 

Part of the SMC is asking the boy who signed off on requirements and making sure I recognize the initials. It's not merely to validate the boy's progress, but to find out from the boy who did a good job teaching/testing.

 

Part of the issues IMHO is lack of planning. SMCs were done just prior to the BORs. AND there was also a Leader's meeting that the Sm was preparing for. SM has too many irons in the fire.

[Krampus]

Actually 1 SMC and BOR can be done for Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class. That's because there are no longer time requirements between S-T-2-1 as they were prior to 1989.

Never heard that. Where is that stated?

 

We don't do a single SMC and BOR for those ranks for the obvious problems you ran in to.

 

As for SMCs, the SMis not retesting them, but having a conversation about goals, experiences, etc.

But he should review the requirements and the dates in the book as part of the process.

 

SM is overwhelmed. He is dividing up the duties among the SMs now. One ASM is handling advancement records.  As for the BOR, the commitee is A) not that active and B) really need to get some BOR training. The folks involved are used to old school retesting, with  a box of supplies for the Scouts to use during the BOR to demonstrate the skills.  They are having some challenges with how they are suppose to be done today.

Clearly. Hopefully this was a learning experience for him. 

 

That's going to be a challenge. If he was staying in out troop, we would have him redo everything Mom signed off on. However he will be leaving at the end of the school year. So we will be having him do as much as possible prior to leaving.  But the records have been submitted.

If it were my Scout we'd hold off on his advancement until he "tested out" of those things signed off by mom. I would not want this kid going to another unit as an example of what we produce unless he met the standards all other Scouts in out unit have met. 

 

Part of the issues IMHO is lack of planning. SMCs were done just prior to the BORs. AND there was also a Leader's meeting that the Sm was preparing for. SM has too many irons in the fire.

Yup. Right hand, left hand issue.

 

We went to SMCs twice a month with BORs are month's end. We do go outside this schedule if the number of rank advancements gets too high or if we need to make sure the Scouts are not waiting too long for their rank.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Krampus