Dealing with that “slow� scout

[Tatung42]

What is the best way to approach the issue when you have large ability diversity between your strongest and weakest scouts on a backpacking trip or other high adventure trip?

 

The scout’s solution is to split the crew up into two groups with all the fast hikers in one group and the slow hikers in the other group, but to me that is a really poor way of handling it.  It is just avoiding the issue rather than solving it.

 

They have also tried (based on my suggestion) pairing up each slow scout with an experienced scout to help motivate them, but that just led to the experienced scouts not having as much fun and not wanting to come on future trips.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Tatung42

[qwazse]

For weekend activities, we assign the slower group the shorter route.

[Sentinel947]

I agree. Appropriate activities are key. The fast group may be capable of 10 miles a day backpacking. The younger, less physically strong scouts may only be good for 5. But it depends, how many boys are going? Do you have enough scouts and adults for multiple crews? If not you unfortunately have to go for the level the slowest scout can make.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Sentinel947

[Stosh]

When I went to Philmont in 2000 I trained with a certain load, a certain pace and when I got to Philmont I stayed with it.  I was the slowest hiker in the group.  The SM made another adult fall back and stay with me.  After a couple of days, he told another adult to take a turn at staying with me.  The first guy said no, he wanted to stay with me at the slower pace.  Before the 9 days were done, there were numerous heated discussions as to who got to stay back with me. 

 

It would seem that the boys and SM would bolt out of the stall early in the morning and after about 50 minutes would sit for 10 minutes to rest.  My buddy and I poked along and would catch up just about the time their 10 minute break was through and they'd bolt on down the trail, I didn't need a break and neither did my partner so we just kept on going along and sure enough we would eventually catch up to the group just in time to have them bolt on down the trail. 

 

The 30 minute breakfast break we got to rest and the 30 minute lunch break was the same.  Eventually the conversation in the evenings began to explain the situation as to why everyone was getting upset.  At my pace we saw more than just the trail 2' in front of us.  My buddy and I talked about the birds we saw, the mule deer sitting along side the trail, the mountain goats off on a far rock wall, etc.  The others missed it all.  The one boy finally identified it when he said the only time he saw anything but the trail and the guy ahead was when they took breaks.

 

One's gotta remember that backpacking and hiking isn't just to get from one place to another.  The journey is the important part.  Make the best of it.  Maybe it's time for everyone to slow down and enjoy the hike instead of worrying about the pace of the hike.

 

When my boys hike the first person in line is the TrailMaster.  He makes sure the route taken stays on a trail and that if the trail splits he is the first to know.  Second in line is the navigator.  He has the map and compass and knows the route and gives the TrailMaster the heads up if something on the map of importance is coming up.  The third person in line is THE SLOWEST SCOUT ON THE HIKE!!!!  HE SETS THE PACE... putting it mildly.    Then all the other boys  all 6' to 8' apart and the last boy in line is the Sweep.  NO ONE gets behind him!  He is the only one in the group that can see everyone on the hike; see if anyone is having problems; and can see the TraillMaster up front.  He should be someone of PL leadership.  Blast on his whistle stops the line of march.

 

If the pace is too slow for the group, train your boys to look around and take in nature while they dawdle down the trail.  Play games like identify 10 plants and 10 animals with the younger boys.  Maybe point out something they see of interest that others might miss, etc.

 

ENJOY YOURSELF!  IT'S NOT A RACE!

[Eagle94-A1]

Stosh,

 

You wouldn't have happened to read any William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt by any chance? I could swear he wrote your idea almost verbatim!

[Stosh]

I've never read it per se, it was just the way I was taught as a kid and it always worked well for me except for that trek to Philmont where the SM was being a patoot.

 

I've used the GBB patrol training curriculum, but I don't remember seeing it in there.

 

Unless it's a vague memory from my days in scouts back in the '60's, I have no idea where it came from, just made sense so I pass it along to my boys.

[CalicoPenn]

Stosh is where I'm at as well - though chances are pretty good that I'm going to make my way to the end of the line at some point rather quickly - and quite deliberately (though I'd still expect the last Scout to be the sweeper) - it's just the position I've always put myself in on hikes, or birdwatching walks, or etc. - comes from my time leading day camp, summer camp, elderhostel, etc. nature hikes - I always led from behind to let the participants make the discoveries.

 

It seems to me that the question should really be about dealing with those "fast" scouts - what's the point of racing down the trail?  When I did the AT, I tried to hike at least 10 hours a day - I figured a mile every 30 minutes was a good pace and that worked out to about 20 miles a day - but how far are you folks planning on going in a day?  The Boy Scouts has a 50-miler award that requires a minimum of 5 days on the trail - that seems to suggest that a good pace for Scouts is 10 miles a day.  That's a good solid 5 Hours at 30 minutes per mile and that seems like a reasonable amount of time to be on the trail - it leaves plenty of time for other pursuits as well.  So why rush it? 

 

However, the question is what to do about the slower Scouts - I think you learned that pairing the up with faster Scouts to help "motivate" them dosesn't work - it annoys the faster Scouts and makes it worse for the Scouts with slower paces.  If I wasn's following Stosh's plan, I would be splitting the group up into a faster and a slower group - but I would also require the faster group to stop on the hour and rest until the slower group got there. 

[Tatung42]

We try to follow putting the slower scout in behind the navigator, but inevitably he always falls back behind.

 

Also, I totally agree with the point that Sentinel947 makes about appropriate activities, but I guess it brings up another point.  How do you tell a scout that an activity is not appropriate for him?  You can't just set an age or rank cutoff because often a first year scout can out hike a first class scout who is a few years older.   Also in this day in age, the scouts are often happy to hear that they don't have to go on a 10+ mile hike, but then you end up with acrimonious parents when they find out that you are not allowing their son to go on a trip.

[ianwilkins]

I really do like the idea of the slowest scout setting the pace. You're a team, you're all in it together. I get cheesed off when I get reports back from hikes where the group have more or less split up, or the most commonest one, a bit like stosh's hike, the slow ones catch up with the fast ones just in time for the fast ones to have had a rest and be ready to roll, but unlike stosh, the slow ones need a rest too, but don't get it. The bad feelings fester. On the other hand, I have a feeling that people have a natural walking pace, which is a pace they can go for miles on no problem. The thing with putting the slowest near the front is whether they will feel pressure to walk faster, tiring themselves out quicker, and ending up struggling even more.

 

Aaah, hiking, it's all in the head.

[Sentinel947]

We try to follow putting the slower scout in behind the navigator, but inevitably he always falls back behind.

 

Also, I totally agree with the point that Sentinel947 makes about appropriate activities, but I guess it brings up another point.  How do you tell a scout that an activity is not appropriate for him?  You can't just set an age or rank cutoff because often a first year scout can out hike a first class scout who is a few years older.   Also in this day in age, the scouts are often happy to hear that they don't have to go on a 10+ mile hike, but then you end up with acrimonious parents when they find out that you are not allowing their son to go on a trip.

 

My first post was a bit rushed. 

 

Ideally, you have multiple crews/patrols that have scouts who are of similar interest and ability (this is easier with BSA HA trips.) 

 

If your troop is using the patrol method, the boys need to set a pace that is acceptable to the group. As other's have said, the slowest hiker sets the pace. When I was a youth, I would frequently try to take gear off the slowest hiker and give it to the rest of the crew so the slow hiker could hike faster. Beyond physical conditioning, this is the only way to make a slower hiker hike faster. 

 

For Philmont, they do have a rank/age cutoff. 

 

For troop backpacking trips we(the adult advisers for the trip) sit down with any Scout and their parents who we have concerns about, and we talk it over. When on the fence we let them go. This has created quite a few headaches, but part of the process is the youth making decisions, and how to overcome a weak link on a team is a great life lesson to learn. 

 

My bigger concern isn't slow hikers, it's hikers who do not actually want to be there. I love backpacking, but if you're heart is not into it, it's terrible. Combine that with a unmotivated scout who is tired and physically chewed up by any meaningful hiking, and they are going to make that trip a not so fun trip for anybody involved. Philmont is the worst for that, as it's 11 days of hiking...

 

This is definitely one of those areas where we as troop leaders have to use our best judgment, there aren't any blanket rules, but rather a few rules of thumb. 

 

@@Stosh, the idea of two people trailing the rest of the group scares me greatly. I saw something similar to that at Philmont. Going up Baldy Mountain, a crew passed us on a rest break up the mountain. Almost 15 minutes later, two of their adult advisers passed us. If one of them went down with an injury, the rest of their crew was 15-20 minutes up the mountain, and who knows when they would realize their advisers behind them were stuck and go back for them. (the top of the mountain?) Regardless of whether its a Scouting backpacking trip, or a trip with my college buddies, I refuse to split up the group for that reason. Better for the group to be taking it easy behind the slow hiker, rather than add additional risk by splitting up the group. 

[Stosh]

Ian,

 

By putting the slowest in 3rd place means the first two guys are always aware that they have to go slow enough for him.   If a major gap occurs between the two the Sweep signals a halt.  If the slow guy  is pressured to go faster than he wants and tires, he starts to drop back or stagger or whatever, but the Sweep sees it and calls a halt. 

 

The Philmont trek I had covered 110 miles in 9 days.  That's only about 10-11 miles a day.  What's the rush  One can cover that in 5-6 hours.  Up at 6, on the trail by 6:30 at destination by noon.  That's at the 2 mph rate!  A normal walker travels at 3 mph, and a fast walker might get 4 mph.  So what's the rush?  I was doing the 2 mph rate consistently and enjoyed myself and was never tired.  I didn't need a break.  Always did a walking breakfast, took a single break at 9:00 am, and then were pretty much at our 10 mile destination by noon.  !/2 the day was wasted with a "Retreat from Stalingrad death march."    I took the slings and arrows from the SM for "ruining" everyone's trek, but had he had an ounce of sense in his head the boys would have enjoyed themselves a lot more.

 

It was interesting that on the day we scaled Mt. Baldy, we came up the back slag side.  It was hot and they all took off like a shot straight up the mountain.  I took my time, was careful, about half way up I found a vague switchback trail among the rocks and got on that and stood up and walked to the top.  The rest of the boys took the short-cut and kept going straight up, taking their breaks at regular routine and I just stuck with the turtle pace and was the first to the top.

 

I was at the top and noticed a thunderhead rolling in as they had warned us that might happen.  I told the boys we had better be getting off the top.  But the SM said they had just gotten there and were going to stay and enjoy the view.  I took off down the hill with about half the boys and we got to the timberline where I had them drop packs and get into lightening position.  Two other groups came down behind us and went deeper into the timber.  Finally the other half caught up and the SM was giving me what-for for not keeping the group together.... Duh?   A lightening strike about 30' behind him convinced him to shut up.  He and his half of the group where all standing there with their metal frame packs on.  I had my boys quickly grab up their packs now that the clouds had temporary lost their charge and headed deeper into the timber.  The other half was finally ahead of us at a dead run with full packs.  The SM never wanted to ever discuss the event.

 

A lot of lessons about hiking, safety, teamwork and who's really leading were learned that day.  For some it didn't help, they went back to the dash and rest routine they had established earlier.

 

One side note to this whole hiking thing was everyone in the group had blister problems on the trek to where one boy had actually peeled off all the skin off the balls of both feet and was bleeding into his socks,  Blisters on tops of toes and heels were more common because no one stopped to take care of their shoes on the uneven ground.  Blisters on the heels going up the hills and blisters on the toes going down the hill.  No one took the time to stop and retie their shoes every 30 minutes.  Well only two people in the entire crew went the whole trek (110 miles, 9 days, all 5 major peaks of Philmont) without a blister.....

[Stosh]

@@Stosh, the idea of two people trailing the rest of the group scares me greatly. I saw something similar to that at Philmont. Going up Baldy Mountain, a crew passed us on a rest break up the mountain. Almost 15 minutes later, two of their adult advisers passed us. If one of them went down with an injury, the rest of their crew was 15-20 minutes up the mountain, and who knows when they would realize their advisers behind them were stuck and go back for them. (the top of the mountain?) Regardless of whether its a Scouting backpacking trip, or a trip with my college buddies, I refuse to split up the group for that reason. Better for the group to be taking it easy behind the slow hiker, rather than add additional risk by splitting up the group. 

 

 

Yep, concerned me too for the whole trek.  But this was an adult-led troop and was one of the major contributors to why I finally left the troop.  The was openly known among all the boys that these HA trips were the SM's vacation that they got to go along on.....

 

Yeah, splitting the group is always a poor idea.  That's why the slow guy sets the pace.  First of all the slow guy is going to feel guilty and push himself knowing he regulates the speed,  He will not dawdle.  But the faster boys will all have to dawdle and enjoy themselves.  It seems to work itself out in the long run and over the years everyone seems to enjoy the hikes a lot more.

 

Oh, by the way, how does one find out who the slowest member is?  Ask the Sweep.  He will notice gaps forming in the line of march and move the person forward always trying to keep the gap formation behind the navigator.  If no gaps are forming anywhere along the line, you're lucky because the TrailBlazer is the slowest!  Everyone is keeping up with his pace!!! 

[Krampus]

If the slow Scouts are really slow then break up to two groups.

 

Now, if the fast Scouts are really too fast -- and you've calculated what your pace should be to get to your camping spot -- then you slow down the fast Scouts by forcing them to walk and the pace of you intermediate paced Scouts.

 

As others have said, it is about enjoying yourself but getting to where you need to in time. I've reminded our Philmont guys how much mom and dad spent to send them to Philmont. It is not a race, it's about memories...good memories!

[Stosh]

I have found that regardless of the group there is always a slow one in each group.    If one were to break into a fast group and a slow group it will mean now there will be 4 groups to deal with.  A fast-fast group and fast-slow group, a slow-fast group and a slow-slow group. Why double the headaches?    Seriously!  If two hikers are going down the trail one is always going to be one faster than the other.  If the fast one is in front a gap will occur, if the slower one is in front the two will stay together.

[Krampus]

I have found that regardless of the group there is always a slow one in each group.    

 

Of course you did...you can see all the slow Scouts from the pack of the line.