Girl scouts

[tyke]

I know that this topic has kinda been done to death, but here in the UK this week we celebrated 25 years since we went co-ed, and now 25% of all beavers, cubs and scouts are girls. Now in the 25 since girls have been part of scouting, the world didn't stop, the sky didn't fall in, we still do scouting, nothing changed, and scouting has shown growth in numbers for the past 11 years.

 

Now if you looked at the uk as a pilot study that is successful then why don't BSA go co-ed ?

[Stosh]

I think the title says it all BOY Scouts whereas in the UK it's SCOUTS.

 

If I wanted to join Scouts I would naturally assume it was not membership restricted in any way, but if the organization was named BOY Scouts or GIRL Scouts, I would assume the membership is limited/restricted to gender.

 

If someone wanted a Scout program in America, they should start one, but as I see it developing, political whining and bullying threats are the means to hijack existing programs as the lazy way of dealing with it.  Thus I tend to mistrust the honesty of those kinds of effort.

 

If the sign out front of my business says "Canoe Rental" why would it be assumed that I rent kayaks or row boats?  Maybe if one is looking to rent kayaks or Row Boats, they need to find a business that has a sign out front that says "Kayak Rental" or "Row Boat Rental", or better yet, the store sign that says "Watercraft Rental" and maybe then one could even rent a paddle board there.  Go figure.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Stosh

[Sentinel947]

I know that this topic has kinda been done to death, but here in the UK this week we celebrated 25 years since we went co-ed, and now 25% of all beavers, cubs and scouts are girls. Now in the 25 since girls have been part of scouting, the world didn't stop, the sky didn't fall in, we still do scouting, nothing changed, and scouting has shown growth in numbers for the past 11 years.

 

Now if you looked at the uk as a pilot study that is successful then why don't BSA go co-ed ?

 

What makes the 25th anniversary any different than the 24th? 

 

I'm not sure why you bring this topic up again. A simple forum search would get you the answer to your question. Most folks here have already put their opinions on the subject out there. 

 

At the end of the day, we're all trying to do what works best for our Scouts. We do us, you do you. 

 

Sentinel947

[gumbymaster]

If the sign out front of my business says "Canoe Rental" why would it be assumed that I rent kayaks or row boats?  Maybe if one is looking to rent kayaks or Row Boats, they need to find a business that has a sign out front that says "Kayak Rental" or "Row Boat Rental", or better yet, the store sign that says "Watercraft Rental" and maybe then one could even rent a paddle board there.  Go figure.

 

Doesn't really help the conversation @@Stosh, but we do rent Kayaks from the Canoe Outfitters here.

[Stosh]

Doesn't really help the conversation @@Stosh, but we do rent Kayaks from the Canoe Outfitters here.

 

Cheesh!  Always gotta be one out there that's a bit of a smartaleck!    

 

What about row boats and paddle-boards?    Any rafts?  Sailboats?  I seriously don't understand why a Canoe Outfitter wouldn't have a full array of watercraft!   

 

(I like your style!    )

[ianwilkins]

I think the title says it all BOY Scouts whereas in the UK it's SCOUTS.

 

If I wanted to join Scouts I would naturally assume it was not membership restricted in any way, but if the organization was named BOY Scouts or GIRL Scouts, I would assume the membership is limited/restricted to gender.

 

That's just a quirk or chance of the language used when setting the things up in the first place though. UK had Scouts and Girl Guides, and USA had BSA and GSA. Though, my history may be patchy on this. All it meant was it was infinitely easier to open it up to girls in the uk, when there isn't such an obvious barrier.

 

But I do take your point, there's nothing really to stop a motivated person to set up something that could share an umbrella with scouting, but had their own take on membership (or much else) specifics. It doesn't really have to be One Org to Rule Them All.

 

Ian

Edited April 18, 2016 by ianwilkins

[Stosh]

That's just a quirk or chance of the language used when setting the things up in the first place though. UK had Scouts and Girl Guides, and USA had BSA and GSA. Though, my history may be patchy on this. All it meant was it was infinitely easier to open it up to girls in the uk, when there isn't such an obvious barrier.

 

But I do take your point, there's nothing really to stop a motivated person to set up something that could share an umbrella with scouting, but had their own take on membership (or much else) specifics. It doesn't really have to be One Org to Rule Them All.

 

Ian

 

I don't have a problem with running Boy Scouts 11-18 (all boys) along side Venturing 14-21 (co-ed).  I can see both sides of the issue, but why with both operating very well side by side with two different missions, do we have to blend the two into just one?

 

I just don't see the need for it.  However, if there be those out there that DO see a need for it.  Then by all means, set something up.  I run my co-ed church youth organizations quite similarly to scouting mission and dynamics.  Obviously helping other people at all times make a smooth transition into youth ministry and mission.

 

But to co-ed Boy Scouts means there will no longer be a boy-only program left.  Schools are co-ed, churches are co-ed, community programs like the YMCA which used to be YOUNG MEN'S CHRISTIAN ASSOCIATION as compared to the YWCA are now co-ed, and Boys and Girls Club are co-ed, etc.  So, where's the freedom to choose?  Choose all one wants, but they will soon realize there isn't a choice anymore.  They're all generically the same program with slight programmatic differences.   YMCA is kinda sports/fitness oriented and BSA is more outdoorsy, but YMCA can do outdoor programs and BSA can do sports programming.  They now are pretty much the same.  With BSA going totally co-ed, then the choice for a boy to manhood transition program disappears completely after 100+ years of developing young men of great character.

[NJCubScouter]

But to co-ed Boy Scouts means there will no longer be a boy-only program left.

I don't think I have ever seen "co-ed" used as a verb before. Is that an invention of yours, Stosh?

[qwazse]

@@tyke, the short answer: one study does not a meta-analysis make. The co-ed programs that offer anything close to this have not soared on this side of the pond. Folks here look at the loss of traction that Scouts Canada had when it went co-ed as a counter-point to the brilliant work of the UK and other countries.

 

That said, I was talking to a scouter this weekend whose troop alternates in attending camporees with scouts across the border, and he was very impressed with how the patrols with Canadian girls performed. (Proviso: I was at a Venturing summit this weekend, so dissenting opinions would be hard to find.)

 

That's just a quirk or chance of the language used when setting the things up in the first place though. UK had Scouts and Girl Guides, and USA had BSA and GSA. Though, my history may be patchy on this. All it meant was it was infinitely easier to open it up to girls in the uk, when there isn't such an obvious barrier. ....

Actually, BSA attempted to brand itself as Scouting USA in the late 70s. (Perhaps it was to give a nod to the female Sea Scouts and Explorers and a feeble attempt to prepare for things to come?)

 

That "experiment" did nothing to halt the annual 2% membership declines. Seems that even the parents of prospective female explorers and sea scouts (as well as parents of boys) trusted "Boy Scouts" as a trade mark better than any brand without sex-specificity.

Edited April 18, 2016 by qwazse

[Cambridgeskip]

This whole 25% thing has been rather "spun". I can understand why, it gives a story to get it into the papers (it made three of the nationals)

 

What seems to be brushed over is that the female membership is weighted heavily in favour of adults. Some 45% of adult volunteers are women. When you work the numbers through it means that female youth membership is around 18%.

[Stosh]

I don't think I have ever seen "co-ed" used as a verb before. Is that an invention of yours, Stosh?

 

The scary part of it all was that you totally understood what I said.  I must be rubbing off on you. 

[NJCubScouter]

Actually, BSA attempted to brand itself as Scouting USA in the late 70s.

I have never heard of that specifically (and I was not involved in Scouting in the late 70s), but I do have a Scout shirt from around 1973-74 that says "Scouts BSA" over the pocket, where it now says (and previously said) "Boy Scouts of America." I remember there was some speculation at the time that this was in preparation for the BSA and GSUSA to merge. Hasn't happened yet.

Edited April 18, 2016 by NJCubScouter

[qwazse]

I have never heard of that specifically (and I was not involved in Scouting in the late 70s), but I do have a Scout shirt from around 1973-74 that says "Scouts BSA" over the pocket, where it now says (and previously said) "Boy Scouts of America." I remember there was some speculation at the time that this was in preparation for the BSA and GSUSA to merge. Hasn't happened yet.

Yep. Still have a collection of bumper stickers with the "Scouting USA" trade name. I trimmed them down to use for geocache swag.

 

If Venturing becomes extremely successful (numerically), attitudes may change. Here's my reasoning:

 

I'd estimate about 10% of venturing youth (especially females) have been snubbed by boy scouts because they can't:

• Wear an AoL knot.
• Earn merit badges.
• Be elected into O/A.
• Earn an award with the words "Star", "Life", or "Eagle" in its name.

For most youth, this means nothing. But for that 10%, they (and some of their Boy Scout allies) either currently

• Envy Boy Scout awards and advancement in more-or-less closed circles.
• Belittle Boy Scout awards and advancement by more-or-less boasting about the rarefied air of Ranger, Trust, Quest, and Summit (erstwhile Silver) awards.
• Quietly go about amassing skills and certifications without giving one rip about awards in either program.

This year's 10% of venturers amounts to 19,000 youth by current numbers -- hardly enough to disturb Boy Scout tradition unless they wind up being the folks who come back in 10 years to bring their kids up through the program. Their narrative may be compelling in some future context. That's a dark horse IMHO.

 

However, if Venturing somehow amasses large numbers (say nearing a million), that 10% becomes 100,000 youth across the nation -- one for each current chartered organization -- some of whom may articulate their boots-on-the-ground stories, confront the primacy of male mystique, and ask "why?" to their CORs.

Edited April 19, 2016 by qwazse

[SpEdScouter]

This is also ignoring the fact that many girls also participate in Cub Scouts with their brothers.

[King Ding Dong]

Why doesn't GSUSA accept boys? Because they don't want to and boys don't want to join GSUSA (though a smart boy would consider such an endevour). The GSUSA is not banging on the doors in Irving pleading to be let in. Believe me that will never happen.

 

Why does this topic keep coming up here and elsewhere? It is becuase BSA has done an excellent job of marketing Eagle and a crummy job on Popcorn and GSUSA has done brilliant job marketing Cookies and a crummy job on everthing else. IMO, the real reason parents want their daughters in BSA is they know GSUSA has screwed up all the other stuff. So the solution is to go lobby GSUSA to dissolve into BSA and bring their cookies with them.

 

Without the blessing of the GSUSA the BSA is never going to start accepting girls into Cub or Boy Scouts and GSUSA is never going to give that blessing. There are some very th headed Dumasses in Irving but they aren't THAT stupid.

 

Now if my boys could go around selling GS Cookies not only could the do HA every year they would likely be able to pay their way through college by the time they age out. $20 bags of popcorn suck.

Edited May 3, 2016 by King Ding Dong