Interesting topic came up....

[Stosh]

Just because one can doesn't mean one should.

[David CO]

Some people have commented on race.  I think affluence plays a bigger role than race.

 

An affluent family can transfer the kid to a private school.  The private school might be local, but it also might be a boarding school out of district.  An affluent family can also buy a new house and move to another school district.

 

The school board can still expel the kid.  But expulsion hearings cost money, and a school board might feel that it's not worth it to expel a student who's not going to be going to their school anyway.

 

I didn't see this happen during my term on the public school board.   I have seen it with students enrolling in Catholic schools.

[Stosh]

Sorry, @[member="David CO"[ I read through your last post 3 times and can't wrap my head around what you mean.

I kinda got lost in the public/private, affluent moving kinda logic.

 

By law these kids have to go to school, they get expelled and parents can't afford private school, how does this all work?  Looks like a declining spiral that everyone ends up in jail because of a zero-tolerance rule?

 

Okay an affluent kid gets in trouble in a public school and the school board doesn't expel him because mom and dad transfer to a private school.  Are you then implying that because the board didn't go through the motion it skews the numbers?

[David CO]

It definitely skews the numbers.

 

It is more than just going through the motions.  In my state, if a kid is expelled from one public school, no other public school is required to take him.  

 

Truancy laws vary a lot from state to state.  I really couldn't say how an expulsion would affect truancy status. 

[TAHAWK]

Rhode Island boy with a gun charm on a key chain suspended

 

Joseph Lyssikatos said he was suspended for three days after the novelty pistol — which he won at a local arcade — fell out of his backpack during class at Alan Shawn Feinstein Middle School in Coventry on Thursday. His mother, Bonnie Bonanno, was outraged at the punishment, which included the seventh-grader being banned from a school trip at the end of the month

 

No moving parts, you understand.  Pot metal molding.

 

A student at Sandusky, Ohio  High School  was suspended for 90 days and flunked, after school authorities searched him for drugs in September 1999, and found a broken pocketknife. He had used the knife to clean his golfing cleats.

 

After bringing the knife from a Cub Scouts eating set to school to eat his lunch, a six-year-old boy was ordered to attend an alternative school for students with behavioral problems for nine weeks.

(That McDonald's must be a real dangerous place.)

 

A third-grader was expelled for a year because her grandmother sent a birthday cake, and a knife for cutting the cake, to school. The teacher used the knife to cut the cake, and then reported her to the authorities as having a dangerous weapon. The expulsion was overturned and led to a state law that gave districts the ability to, "on a case-by-case basis, modify the terms of the expulsion.

 

A  straight-A student who was ordered to attend "reform school" after a classmate dropped a pocket knife in his lap. 

 

A second grader in Baltimore, Maryland, was suspended in March 2013 for biting a Pop-Tart into the shape of a mountain, which school officials mistook for a gun.

 

"Alexis Kyle, 13, faces a penalty for using her peer’s inhaler during gym class Tuesday at Schrade Middle School. Seventh-grader Inidyah Rush offered Alexis her inhaler after seeing Alexis having an asthma attack, according to FOX 4. Both girls face punishment for violating school rules that prohibit sharing a controlled substance, such as prescription drugs. "

 

I can find no study showing that zero tolerance practices reduce unwanted behaviors.  Can you help?

 

 

There has been a reaction, including formal opposition by the American Bar Association.

 

Advocacy group have formed:

 

FairfaxZeroToleranceReform.org

 

School board members are being called to account in elections:

ALBANY — A high school student with area labor unions' backing is challenging former Republican gubernatorial candidate Carl Paladino for his seat on the fractious Buffalo school board, saying it desperately needs "some adult behavior." . . . He also would get rid of the zero-tolerance policies he said often unfairly lead to students' suspensions, which he said should instead be decided on a case-by-case basis.

 

As suggested, we don't need zero-thinking, zero-judgment policies in Scouting - especially for youth.

[Stosh]

It definitely skews the numbers.

 

It is more than just going through the motions.  In my state, if a kid is expelled from one public school, no other public school is required to take him.  

 

Truancy laws vary a lot from state to state.  I really couldn't say how an expulsion would affect truancy status. 

 

Maybe someone should find out before they kick some kid to the curb for maybe saving an asthma attack victim's life, or destroying some A-student's chance at a nice college.

 

After all we are supposed to be dealing with educated people here...... Doesn't bode well for the education profession to harbor such draconian practices in today's modern world. 

[Krampus]

Rhode Island boy with a gun charm on a key chain suspended

 

Joseph Lyssikatos said he was suspended for three days after the novelty pistol — which he won at a local arcade — fell out of his backpack during class at Alan Shawn Feinstein Middle School in Coventry on Thursday. His mother, Bonnie Bonanno, was outraged at the punishment, which included the seventh-grader being banned from a school trip at the end of the month

 

No moving parts, you understand.  Pot metal molding.

 

A student at Sandusky, Ohio  High School  was suspended for 90 days and flunked, after school authorities searched him for drugs in September 1999, and found a broken pocketknife. He had used the knife to clean his golfing cleats.

 

After bringing the knife from a Cub Scouts eating set to school to eat his lunch, a six-year-old boy was ordered to attend an alternative school for students with behavioral problems for nine weeks.

(That McDonald's must be a real dangerous place.)

 

A third-grader was expelled for a year because her grandmother sent a birthday cake, and a knife for cutting the cake, to school. The teacher used the knife to cut the cake, and then reported her to the authorities as having a dangerous weapon. The expulsion was overturned and led to a state law that gave districts the ability to, "on a case-by-case basis, modify the terms of the expulsion.

 

A  straight-A student who was ordered to attend "reform school" after a classmate dropped a pocket knife in his lap. 

 

A second grader in Baltimore, Maryland, was suspended in March 2013 for biting a Pop-Tart into the shape of a mountain, which school officials mistook for a gun.

 

"Alexis Kyle, 13, faces a penalty for using her peer’s inhaler during gym class Tuesday at Schrade Middle School. Seventh-grader Inidyah Rush offered Alexis her inhaler after seeing Alexis having an asthma attack, according to FOX 4. Both girls face punishment for violating school rules that prohibit sharing a controlled substance, such as prescription drugs. "

 

I can find no study showing that zero tolerance practices reduce unwanted behaviors.  Can you help?

 

 

There has been a reaction, including formal opposition by the American Bar Association.

 

Advocacy group have formed:

 

FairfaxZeroToleranceReform.org

 

School board members are being called to account in elections:

ALBANY — A high school student with area labor unions' backing is challenging former Republican gubernatorial candidate Carl Paladino for his seat on the fractious Buffalo school board, saying it desperately needs "some adult behavior." . . . He also would get rid of the zero-tolerance policies he said often unfairly lead to students' suspensions, which he said should instead be decided on a case-by-case basis.

 

As suggested, we don't need zero-thinking, zero-judgment policies in Scouting - especially for youth.

 

I sent this to my neighbor...the local middle school principle. He noted that, while our district is very strict on most rules, administrators and teachers are allowed to exercise discretion. He told me of a similar instance where a new 6th grader had a gun patch on his backpack. Turns out someone put it there (thank you video cameras and attentive teachers) so the student was not responsible. Even if he had put it on the punishment was to write a 500 word essay on why putting the sticker on was a bad idea. He noted they have a "zero tolerance" policy on firearms and such, but are given latitude to use their brains.

 

Side Note: Daughter was in driver's ed class (private company) sitting in a chair, feet off the ground. Teacher comes and tells her she needs to put her feet on the floor (agree with that entirely). Then tells her that it is a Muslim-owned business and, if she were in a Muslim country she would be imprisoned for wearing what she was wearing and sitting like that. Daughter had the presence of mind to 1) apologize for not sitting with feet on the floor (house rule and the respectful thing to do even in AMERICA), and 2) reminded the teacher that a) there is not policy about how to dress for this class and she was dressed within the local school district's dress code, b) that this is AMERICA and that she can dress, sit and act any way she wants as long as it is within established school rules, local laws or published business guidelines (i.e., no shirt, no service).

 

I am going to have a REAL nice talk with the owner tonight about making statements to young girls about what they can and can't do in the United States!

[qwazse]

...

I am going to have a REAL nice talk with the owner tonight about making statements to young girls about what they can and can't do in the United States!

 

As someone whose family endured countless "welcome to America" speeches, then watch those families devolve into debauchery ... just requesting you go easy on the guy.

[Krampus]

As someone whose family endured countless "welcome to America" speeches, then watch those families devolve into debauchery ... just requesting you go easy on the guy.

 

The guy has been here 25 years. The last thing he needs to do is lecture a 15 year old girl on what would happen to her if she was in "his country". I spent 4 years in "his country". I have seen how they treat women. He is not bringing that crappola here. 

 

As a child of immigrants I know the routine. I've felt the backlash. My family embraced being here and conformed while bringing the best their old country had to offer. They didn't walk around requiring people in their store to conform to how things were back in their old country.

[TAHAWK]

Lets make it harder for our "local middle school principal."   What if the patch was sewn on and  said  "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" ?

[Stosh]

I would inform the "gentleman" that veiled threats against minors such as that are illegal in America and that if it happens again, it will be reported to the authorities.

[Krampus]

Lets make it harder for our "local middle school principal."   What if the patch was sewn on and  said  "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" ?

 

LOL...already done. The other middle school in town had two similar issues. One was the Don't Tread on Me shirt being worn, the other was an NRA shirt that simply had the words of the Bill of Rights on the front and Second Amendment on the back. Also popular is the t-shirt below.

 

 

In all cases nothing happened to the students. Same cannot be said for a few hours south in Austin. Student wearing same shirt -- during Texas Independence Day -- was suspended for not being "culturally sensitive" to the Mexicans. Same day a kid wore a t-shirt with this design below and was allowed to keep it on all day.

 

[Stosh]

Most bigots can't see their bigotry......  It's an unfortunate "social challenge" (being PC, of course)

[Beavah]

School Boards and their zero-tolerance policies are a prime example of independent fiefdoms outside our current code of law.  Instead of managing the operation and considering the welfare of the community they represent, they legislate, execute and adjudicate their own set of laws.  

 

Yah, @@Stosh, I hear yeh when it comes to da sentiment.

 

Two things, though.

 

First, School Boards aren't at all outside our current code of laws, eh?  They're a full part of 'em.  They're an elected legislature for da school district.  Just like da elected city council can pass local ordinances for da city yeh live in, the elected school board can pass local policies for da schools.   That's the charge given 'em by state laws (or sometimes by state constitutions).  No taxation with out representation, eh?  As long as there's a school tax on da populace, da populace gets to elect representatives to legislate for the schools.

 

Second, da zero tolerance policies in most states aren't local ones.  They're passed by da state legislatures to take discretion away from local school officials and local school boards.   A school official or school board that doesn't adhere to da zero tolerance policy is breaking the law.   At very least it exposes 'em to enormous liability. 

 

Why do legislatures pass such things?   Because somewhere some local superintendent or school board hasn't expelled a student, and that student then repeat-offended and hurt another kid.   Grantin' local discretion often means that you're grantin' discretion to local folks who don't have da courage or backbone to do the right thing, or who want to give the young lad the benefit of the doubt and keep workin' with him... and then get another kid hurt, or disrupt the classroom, or...

 

Generally speakin', legislated zero tolerance policies for things like weapons, drugs, hazing/bullying, makin' threats and the like have broad support in the general public. 

 

So if we wan't to fix da problem of zero tolerance policies, we have to convince our fellow citizens that they're a bad idea - and we have to assure 'em that da folks who will be given discretion will exercise that discretion well, eh?   I agree they're a bad idea, but I also worry that not all the folks out there will use discretion well.

 

What seems odd to me, though, is how some of the folks who are opposed to zero-tolerance policies and want local judgment and discretion for da schools at the same time think da BSA policies are absolute mandates and there shouldn't be local discretion.  I don't understand that.  The argument that there are bad scouters out there so we have to have rules is da same argument that the zero-tolerance folks make, eh?  There are bad teachers/administrators out there so we have to have rules!

 

Beavah

Edited April 21, 2016 by Beavah

[qwazse]

The guy has been here 25 years. The last thing he needs to do is lecture a 15 year old girl on what would happen to her if she was in "his country". I spent 4 years in "his country". I have seen how they treat women. He is not bringing that crappola here. 

 

As a child of immigrants I know the routine. I've felt the backlash. My family embraced being here and conformed while bringing the best their old country had to offer. They didn't walk around requiring people in their store to conform to how things were back in their old country.

 

Probably the only thing my grandparents rued about immigrating was the havoc that they perceived the sexual revolution wreaked on their children. I've since talked to Syrians who lingered in country, and know the old folks' rant was pots calling kettles black.

 

I'm just saying, keep in mind that he sees how "our" girls are abused, coerced into pseudo-consensual promiscuity, and trafficked in this country and wants that crappola to stop, and work from common ground that you both want the best for your kids. You just are pretty convinced that fiddling with dress codes doesn't even touch the margin of the problem.