Interesting topic came up....

[Beavah]

For example, the Pres and others of his ilk speak of "free" education.  What they mean is, "You should have more, and they should pay for it."

 

Yah, I reckon if us older folks expect that da young people are goin' to keep payin' for our Social Security and Medicare, and keep workin' to fund our pensions and such, and are goin' to defend our country against cyber attacks and real ones, we'd better invest in their education, eh?

 

Makin' young people stronger and givin' 'em opportunity is one of da best things we can do for the nation.   Investin' in older folks is largely wasted resource economically. 

 

After all, we're all out here givin' young people our time for free, eh?  In fact, I expect all of us are payin' pretty heavily for da privilege.   And then we're givin' to FOS so that the lads can have more, with us payin' for it.      That's an honorable thing, eh?

 

Now, I reckon in some ways folks should get a free public education... once.   If yeh have to do it a second time, that's on you.

 

Beavah

Edited May 1, 2016 by Beavah

[TAHAWK]

I have voted for every educational levy on every ballot put in front me..  So I know very well it's not "free" - not even once.  Let us at least based decisions on reality rather than myth.  Someone always pays.

 

For almost  fifty years I was one of the "young people" paying for federal social welfare benefits for "older folks," including some years as a self-employed person paying the "employer's share"   Then I started to collect the partially-taxable "benefits."   If I am really lucky, I will still not make out on the "deal."  But our society did - and will for the foreseeable future if the politicians stop kicking the can down the road.

 

And somehow it still feels better to give voluntarily vs. "giving" at the point of a gun.

[Krampus]

Social security would be more successful if you could opt out and invest the money yourself. Those who feel they need help can invest the money through an agent the government if need be. But you aren't allowed to take out of someone else's pot. What you earn is yours, that way you don't have people loafing around waiting to steal out of a life time of someone else's hard work.

 

Education is free through 12th grade. If you need more, work for it. Save up. Part of the reason college tuition has sky-rocketed is because everyone now is going to college. While the demand goes up, the supply also goes up. It is one of the only markets where the laws of supply and demand are not operating properly. Why? Intervention by the government.

 

I told my kids to go two years to community college and then transfer in to the 4 year college they want that piece of paper from. There's ZERO reason to spend $50k/year for the same piece of paper that you can get for a fraction of the cost. No employer is going to ask if you spent all four years at Hi Tech University; they just want to know if you got your diploma. Why be $200k in debt when you can be $50-100k or less in debt?

[Stosh]

I went the cheap route.  State school, working part time, taking semesters off to get financially caught up, managed 4 years of college and 4 years of seminary and came out in 1980 $1500 in debt and $7,000 in the bank driving a new car.  Go figure.  It just depends on how badly one wants an education and what kind of sacrifice one is willing to make to get it. 

 

I'm sure these entitled students want Yale and Harvard free education.  Instead would they be willing to go 2 years in a state technical college, then 2 at a state university for 2 years?  I doubt it. 

[Krampus]

I'm sure these entitled students want Yale and Harvard free education.  Instead would they be willing to go 2 years in a state technical college, then 2 at a state university for 2 years?  I doubt it. 

 

State techs are expensive for out of state. Hard to get in to for in-state unless you are illegal or "of color". That leaves private schools. 

 

Like I said, if the playing field were level, and we let supply and demand work, tuition would come down. Dinkering with it has lead to everyone getting diplomas BUT their debit to income ratio is HIGHER than had they not gone to college and the market been allowed to find equilibrium. 

 

Yet another example of the government intending one thing, but the opposite happens.

[desertrat77]

Joined the Air Force and went to night school at local colleges, BC (Before Computers).   Started at a community college.

 

Kept at it--field exercises, two year-long overseas assignments, and two deployments.   Took 12 years but completed a master's degree with no debt.   Strange to say, but I'm just as proud of my associate's degree from the community college.  

 

The military paid 75 percent of the tuition for almost all of the classes (at the time, I didn't have the GI Bill because I enlisted between the old and the new).   I paid for books.

 

I will always be grateful to the taxpayers of America for the tuition assistance.

 

I concur with the previous comments--most young people today would be far better off getting a two-year technical degree, or become licensed in a trade.   I've witnessed the condescending attitudes towards the trades, even in my own family.   "You want me to go to community college?   Or the tech center?   Ewww!"    They'd rather have their BA/BS and be unemployed/underemployed, AND chained with long-term debt than become a welder or a nurse.   Signs and wonders.

 

If young people want free or subsidized education, they should do something to earn it.   Military, Peace Corps, whathaveyou.    Too bad we don't have the WPA or CCC anymore.   Serve a hitch and receive some college benefits.

 

A sign of the times:   a local man ran a shoe and boot repair business.   He was in the Army during the Korean War, and when his hitch was up, the government paid for him to learn the trade.  His shop was open for almost 50 years.   He wasn't rich, but he made a living and was good at his craft.

 

He was getting on in years, and looking to retire.   He publicly offered to teach a young person the trade, and then GIVE him/her the shop, no strings attached.  After a few years of no one taking his offer, he sold out and retired.

Edited May 1, 2016 by desertrat77

[Krampus]

@@desertrat77, the three people I hired were SAC command/control specialists with two years of community college and two years post tour at UTSA. Beat the hell out of the UT techies with $100k of debt and no work experience.

[NJCubScouter]

Yeah, these kids today. Not like in our day when we walked five miles to school, uphill, both ways.

 

It seems like half the threads in this forum turn into that eventually.

[TAHAWK]

...and the wolves !!! 

[King Ding Dong]

You forgot the snow.

[Stosh]

State techs are expensive for out of state. Hard to get in to for in-state unless you are illegal or "of color". That leaves private schools. 

 

Like I said, if the playing field were level, and we let supply and demand work, tuition would come down. Dinkering with it has lead to everyone getting diplomas BUT their debit to income ratio is HIGHER than had they not gone to college and the market been allowed to find equilibrium. 

 

Yet another example of the government intending one thing, but the opposite happens.

 

If one wishes to go out of state, they pay for it.  If one wishes to go to private schools, they pay for it.  If they wish the tax payers to pick up the tab, they take the in-state 2 -> 4 year state schools for tuition free education.  They might think they are entitled to a free tuition education, but the tax payer pays for nice state schools right in their own state that should fit the bill very nicely.

[Beavah]

Social security would be more successful if you could opt out and invest the money yourself. Those who feel they need help can invest the money through an agent the government if need be. But you aren't allowed to take out of someone else's pot. What you earn is yours, that way you don't have people loafing around waiting to steal out of a life time of someone else's hard work.

 

Yah, hmmm.  

 

I confess I don't quite understand statements like charity "at the point of a gun" and "stealing out of someone else's hard work" and all that.

 

I fully admit that I'm a Christian sort of fellow and a Scouter, so I see helpin' other people and providin' opportunities for the young as a personal moral obligation.   If yeh have a community where we've been successful as Scouters and Christians, then it seems pretty natural that a majority of da folks will be willing to vote to help other people and provide opportunities for the young.    That's a victory, eh?  We taught folks for 100+ years to help other people at all times.

 

Economically, it makes a lot of sense to pay 100% for health insurance for kids and young folks, eh?  That's an investment in future production and contribution to da country.   Makes little sense for da country to pay for Medicare for retirees.   They're just takin' from da system.   They could have saved up for health care costs in their retirement, eh?  And if they didn't, let 'em die in da streets and reduce da surplus population!   Most of us gave up flirtin' with Ayn Rand when we were teenagers, though, and embraced Scoutin' values.  

 

Sometimes just votin' to charge yourself regular dues is easier than hostin' bake sales and popcorn sales and havin' someone hit yeh up for fundraisin' every other week.   Payin' taxes is just regular, ordinary good citizenship, eh?    I don't want to teach boys to complain about taxes, or jury duty, or military service, or any of da things that are just what we citizens have decided to do together.

 

Now, we do have to stay mentally awake, eh?   Sometimes there are better ways of doin' things, and we want to be alert to that.    A fuel or carbon tax is better than lots and lots of regulations, perhaps.    Individual market investments may make sense over da long term... or they may be subject to manipulation and robbery by bankers and financiers (or just hit by da latest market crash right when yeh need 'em).  We should look at those things and experiment and argue and make da best decisions we can, eh?

 

But after that, just like in Scoutin', we should all pull together... even if we disagree with what da PLC or da SPL decided.

 

Beavah

[Stosh]

My step son paid his way through a prestigious eastern college by commercial fishing in Alaska.  Got a great job in a high tech business as an electrical engineer.

 

He's back doing commercial fishing in Alaska full time, makes more money and has his winters off to travel.

[Beavah]

If one wishes to go out of state, they pay for it.  If one wishes to go to private schools, they pay for it.  If they wish the tax payers to pick up the tab, they take the in-state 2 -> 4 year state schools for tuition free education.  They might think they are entitled to a free tuition education, but the tax payer pays for nice state schools right in their own state that should fit the bill very nicely.

 

Yah, taxpayers pay less and less for state schools, eh?   That's why tuitions keep goin' up, and why state schools do their best to recruit out-of-state students and foreign students who pay da higher tuition rates.   In-state students are heavily subsidized by out-of-state students because da taxpayers aren't doin' much anymore.

 

Havin' only state schools, though, isn't really great for democracies.   It's da socialist/Soviet model for education.

 

Beavah

[Stosh]

So why shouldn't the state school go for the big payouts?  Same holds true for the private schools.

 

But the point still remains, if one wants a free tuition ride, they go with the local state schools, after all they must be good or out of state and international students wouldn't be paying extra for them! 

 

As a taxpayer, why should I pay for some rich kids trip to Harvard or Yale? 

 

It's the capitalist model.  Here's the freebie, if you want something more, go shopping.  A used car will get a person from point A to point B if that is the goal.  They don't need a Ferrari or Lamborghini.  If a kid wants an education I will help out with the used car.  I own 4 vehicles with mileage over 100,000 and one over 200,000 miles.  They get the job done.