Scoutmaster denies 17 year old Life Scout Eagle

[David CO]

MrBob,

 

I hadn't thought about it before, but I think you're right.  My parish might very possibly retain the policy even if we were to no longer charter a unit.

[qwazse]

I distinguish between what a CO is entitled to do and what it can do.

 

Given the B.S.A's language in the Guide to Advancement and the statement of the spokesperson for the B.S.A.  advancement team quoted above, it does not appear that B.S.A . agrees with David's CO about what it is entitled to do, although, as a practical matter, units very rarely have their charters pulled.

Maybe BSA, by way of clearer language, should move "God and my Country" towards the end of the Oath, somewhere after the line that says "and to the supremacy of advancement and its guide to the same."

[CalicoPenn]

I don't see what David's CO is doing as adding to any requirements, nor are they subtracting from any requirements - what thy are doing is denying Scouts the opportunity to advance at their own pace.  It's just not the same as a Scoutmaster denying someone their advancement by requiring additional nights of camping, or requiring another merit badge.

 

They aren't saying their Scouts can't advance, they're just delaying when Scouts going through their confirmation process can start earning service hours.  If they want to do that, I suppose that's ok (though I can also see how some could interpret it as adding to the requirements).

 

My real question is why would an organization even want to charter a Boy Scout unit if they're going to back-burner a significant part of the program?  

[David CO]

I don't see what David's CO is doing as adding to any requirements, nor are they subtracting from any requirements - what thy are doing is denying Scouts the opportunity to advance at their own pace.  It's just not the same as a Scoutmaster denying someone their advancement by requiring additional nights of camping, or requiring another merit badge.

 

They aren't saying their Scouts can't advance, they're just delaying when Scouts going through their confirmation process can start earning service hours.  If they want to do that, I suppose that's ok (though I can also see how some could interpret it as adding to the requirements).

 

My real question is why would an organization even want to charter a Boy Scout unit if they're going to back-burner a significant part of the program?  

 

If we didn't already have a unit, I don't think my CO would even consider chartering a new unit.  Not today.  

Edited June 23, 2016 by David CO

[Hedgehog]

First question - Wouldn't the Confirmation service hours count for advancement other than the Eagle project?  They just have to be approved by the Scoutmaster.

 

Second question - Why can't Eagle projects count toward Confirmaiton service hours?  We have one Scout that is building pantry cabinets on wheels for the local faith-based soup kitchen.  I know not all of them would count, but I've seen a lot in our Troop that have a faith based component and many benefit our local churches.  What better way to show service to faith than by organizing a project rather than merely attending an adult organized project.

 

Third - Is the restriction "no outside service projects during your confirmation year"; "no service projects that interfere with confirmation service projects" or "you need to get your Confirmation service hours in before doing any other service"?

 

Fourth - How many 8th graders do you get trying to complete their Eagle projects in your unit?  I mean most of our guys are wrapping up the week before their 18th birthday.

[David CO]

We don't get many Eagles.

 

One of the reasons so few schools charter troops is the age problem.  Middle school is 11 to 13.  High school is 14-18.  It is not like Cub Scouts, where all ages are in one elementary school building.

 

All troops struggle with retaining high school boys.  It's even more difficult for units chartered by a k-8 grade school or a 6-8 middle school.

[David CO]

On the academic side of my school, there would be absolutely no problem with a student/scout doing a two-fer on requirements.  He could write a paper for class and then submit it for a merit badge.  We are all fine with that.  In fact, I encourage it.

 

My DRE (Director of Religious Education) feels differently when it comes to service hours.  She thinks a service hour should be a unique and separate act, not connected to any other program or requirement.

[Beavah]

All troops struggle with retaining high school boys.  It's even more difficult for units chartered by a k-8 grade school or a 6-8 middle school.

 

Yah, hmmm.... Not all troops.   I can point to some that don't seem to have any difficulty. 

 

Da necessary ingredient seems to be an active PLC and genuine responsibility and leadership for the older scouts.   Often, but not always, accompanied by an older scouts "high adventure" type program of some sort.   The real key seems to be real responsibility.  IMO mixed-age patrols have a slight advantage here, because then the PLC becomes the home of responsible older scouts, rather than a weird mix of capable boys and newbie PLs.

 

Your point about the "age problem" for public schools as partners is a good one, though.   Kids don't often want to go back to participate in their middle school.   That's somethin' worth thinkin' about carefully.   Yeh could do a dumbed-down middle school Boy Scout program and then HS Venturing, but I'm not sure I'm a fan.  Yeh could have da HS charter troops, and then use 'em as outreach for middle schoolers.  That might make for a really robust program, eh?  Sorta like how talented middle schoolers can take HS classes.   Might really ease the HS transition for a lot of kids, which is a big one.

 

Beavah

[qwazse]

... My DRE (Director of Religious Education) feels differently when it comes to service hours.  She thinks a service hour should be a unique and separate act, not connected to any other program or requirement.

I'd be inclined to agree. But then, I have a very low view of the bean-counting attitude that BSA's paltry requirements have inculcated.

But it's not merely that. Many of the scouts who I've talked to are uncomfortable counting church-related service for their hours. And my lot has never been told by anyone except the Good Book that heavenly rewards are withheld if works are cashed in for earthly reward.

 

...Yeh could have da HS charter troops, and then use 'em as outreach for middle schoolers.  That might make for a really robust program, eh?  Sorta like how talented middle schoolers can take HS classes.   Might really ease the HS transition for a lot of kids, which is a big one. ...

One real plus for scouting for my boys (and me and Mrs. Q) was the collection of "older brothers" they got to know a year or two before starting high school. Same happened for me as well.

[King Ding Dong]

The paltry service hours at least ensure at least something gets done. The resume building parents wouldn't have their sons do any if given the choice.

[David CO]

Yah, hmmm.... Not all troops.   I can point to some that don't seem to have any difficulty. 

 

Da necessary ingredient seems to be an active PLC and genuine responsibility and leadership for the older scouts.   Often, but not always, accompanied by an older scouts "high adventure" type program of some sort.   The real key seems to be real responsibility.  IMO mixed-age patrols have a slight advantage here, because then the PLC becomes the home of responsible older scouts, rather than a weird mix of capable boys and newbie PLs.

 

Your point about the "age problem" for public schools as partners is a good one, though.   Kids don't often want to go back to participate in their middle school.   That's somethin' worth thinkin' about carefully.   Yeh could do a dumbed-down middle school Boy Scout program and then HS Venturing, but I'm not sure I'm a fan.  Yeh could have da HS charter troops, and then use 'em as outreach for middle schoolers.  That might make for a really robust program, eh?  Sorta like how talented middle schoolers can take HS classes.   Might really ease the HS transition for a lot of kids, which is a big one.

 

Beavah

 

It would be great if the Catholic high school had a unit.  That would really make the transition much easier.  But that is more of a district discussion, since the high school has a different CO.

 

I think many of our parents would feel a little uncomfortable going directly from an elementary school Cub Scout unit to a high school based troop with a different CO.  

 

There is also the question of distance.  Catholic high schools are few and far between.  We don't have one in every town.

 

I think it would be more practical for us to have a unit in both the middle school and the high school, and let individual boys transition whenever they feel most comfortable.

[David CO]

I am not trying to "steal the thread" and make this discussion about my unit and CO.  I apologize to SSF  if this might appear to be my intention.  I was only trying to give an example to illustrate my point, and things got a little carried away.

 

I know next to nothing about SSF's Chartered Organization.  I don't know why SSF's CO chartered a unit, or how chartering a unit helps the CO to accomplish its mission.

 

Some on this forum may think the CO is irrelevant.  The CO's mission is irrelevant.  The CO's unique situation and needs are irrelevant.  Just follow the guidelines.

 

Obviously, I disagree.  

Edited June 23, 2016 by David CO

[TAHAWK]

To acknowledge the more positive aspects of life, the other parents seem perfectly happy to see their sons serve the community.

[Stosh]

I have co-ed group of kids that in the past 5 weeks have been rock climbing, hiking and swimming, participated in a a week long service project for 7 different organizations and are planning on a 6 hour kayak outing this next Wednesday.  Kinda sad it isn't a BSA group of kids.

[Beavah]

I have co-ed group of kids that in the past 5 weeks have been rock climbing, hiking and swimming, participated in a a week long service project for 7 different organizations and are planning on a 6 hour kayak outing this next Wednesday.  Kinda sad it isn't a BSA group of kids.

 

Yah, hmmm...

 

Why is that sad, @@Stosh?   I'm delighted when other organizations are out doin' good things with kids.    Just the same way I hope they'd be delighted to see scouts out doin' great things!    We can't reach all kids and neither can they, but hopefully if enough good people and good programs are out there, every boy and girl will be reached by something fun that helps 'em learn and grow, and by someone who really cares.

 

B