Scoutmaster denies 17 year old Life Scout Eagle

[MrBob]

I've only taken a few theological classes in the Catholic setting, but I don't think there's anything in most parishes that would send some kid to Hell for doing service projects on his own.  After all I do believe most altar boys are about this age and that serving during the service    There is something seriously wrong to assume that people are to suspend their ministry in the world while they take classes on how to do their ministry in the world.

 

eh.. Churches will do what Churches will do - that's why there's as many flavors of Christianity as there are flavors at Baskin Robbins.

[King Ding Dong]

I have not ready every post in the last 10 pages but I plan to. This thought just occurred to me: So when this young man truly reaches adulthood with a fully developed brain and intellect sometime in his mid 20s what will he think of this experience? It will be about this time that he really makes the decision if he is going to continue with his parents religion or find his own path and likely a mate and family to share that path. Will he think "I sure am glad all those adults put me in a box and determined the path of my religious and scouting journey."?

[David CO]

I have not ready every post in the last 10 pages but I plan to. This thought just occurred to me: So when this young man truly reaches adulthood with a fully developed brain and intellect sometime in his mid 20s what will he think of this experience? It will be about this time that he really makes the decision if he is going to continue with his parents religion or find his own path and likely a mate and family to share that path. Will he think "I sure am glad all those adults put me in a box and determined the path of my religious and scouting journey."?

 

It's very likely.  

 

Over the years, many of my former students and scouts have come back to thank us.  I often see prominent people who publicly credit their success to their Catholic upbringing and education.

 

I have also seen two or three generations of families who have all attended our school.  So yes, I think it is not only possible, but very likely that my students will grow up to be both glad and grateful for our devoted service. 

 

It is certainly true that Catholicism is a structured religion.  I can understand how those who were raised in a less structured religion might view it as being "put in a box".  

 

But to suggest that someone "with a fully developed brain and intellect" would not choose Catholicism or appreciate his Catholic upbringing, is truly offensive.

Edited June 20, 2016 by David CO

[Tampa Turtle]

Boy this is the thread that keeps on giving...I am getting so confused..so is the kid ever gonna get his Eagle?

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm....

 

I was settlin' in with my bag of popcorn but then I completely lost da plot of this particular train wreck.

 

@@Stosh, I think what you're missin' is that (as I understand it) Catholic confirmation programs are one-year programs, eh?  And by one year, what they mean is one academic year that sort of gets goin' by October and ends in da spring whenever they are able to schedule confirmation.   So I expect what @@David CO is talkin' about is a restriction for 4-6 months out of a scout's 7+ years.  Da age 13-18 (really 13-dead) is the range in time when yeh are eligible to start your 4-6 month stretch.   

 

Unless @@David CO is runnin' a rapid-advancement Eagle Mill, I don't reckon he's got a lot of 13-year-old simultaneous confirmation and Eagle candidates among his 8th graders, eh?  So what we're really talkin' is maybe a brief delay on FC or Star.  If a lad is up for Life (or Eagle) he has to put in 6 months anyway, so I'm not seein' how this is holdin' a kid back.  He serves his POR while he's doin' Confirmation class and schedules his service for da weekend after he's confirmed.  Maybe he helps clean up after da confirmation ceremony.

 

I've got a friend who is a Jesuit attorney and canon lawyer.  We've worked together on a few things. There's a quote from da Spiritual Exercises that is perhaps apropos here:

 

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another's statement than to condemn it.  But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it.  And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love.

 

[TAHAWK]

"My CO has a service requirement that members are expected to complete as part of their preparation for Confirmation.   The CO doesn't want boys to be doing any other service projects that might compete with their time and energies until after they have received the Sacrament of Confirmation."

 

As described by David, this unit's ban on participating in (Scout?) service projects until Confirmation is completed is not limited to the Eagle Scout Service Project or to 13-year-olds.  I would be happy if there is a different meaning to be ascribed to the quoted words and ask David to tell us how he understands his troop's policy beyond his posts.  I am in no position to correct David as to his description of his unit's policy, with love or otherwise.  Even the harshest critic in this thread has accepted the honestly and accuracy of David's description, if not the validity of the policy reflected in those words.

[MrBob]

"My CO has a service requirement that members are expected to complete as part of their preparation for Confirmation.   The CO doesn't want boys to be doing any other service projects that might compete with their time and energies until after they have received the Sacrament of Confirmation."

 

As described by David, this unit's ban on participating in (Scout?) service projects until Confirmation is completed is not limited to the Eagle Scout Service Project or to 13-year-olds.  I would be happy if there is a different meaning to be ascribed to the quoted words and ask David to tell us how he understands his troop's policy beyond his posts.  I am in no position to correct David as to his description of his unit's policy, with love or otherwise.  Even the harshest critic in this thread has accepted the honestly and accuracy of David's description, if not the validity of the policy reflected in those words.

 

His Church doesn't want its parishioners participating in "extracurricular" activities during Confirmation.  

 

Its not a UNIT ban, and its only tangentially a "CO" ban (tangentially, because this Church would still have that policy, even if it wasn't chartering a BSA unit).

 

 

We may not "like" this Church's policy, but lets not mis-characterize the situation.

Edited June 20, 2016 by MrBob

[MattR]

Boy this is the thread that keeps on giving...I am getting so confused..so is the kid ever gonna get his Eagle?

Do you have Cliff Notes?

 

I go on a campout and miss so much fun

 

Yet, the topic of how best to encourage a scout is getting down to the crux of what we're all about and I'm sympathetic to both sides. People can abuse this program and they can also make it do wonderful things. Ain't that the definition of life.

[TAHAWK]

His Church doesn't want its parishioners participating in "extracurricular" activities during Confirmation.  

 

Its not a UNIT ban, and its only tangentially a "CO" ban (tangentially, because this Church would still have that policy, even if it wasn't chartering a BSA unit).

 

 

We may not "like" this Church's policy, but lets not mis-characterize the situation.

Everyone should speak up for fairness, but I only have David's words.  Do you have an independent source of knowledge?

 

I thought he had non-parishioners in the troop. Perhaps he meant they were only students in the school.

 

He has not said that the IH created the rule, although that may very well be true.  We just do not know.  He attributed the rule to "my CO."

 

"extracurricular"?  Scouting is part of the Youth Ministry of the church. 

 

By "unit ban" I meant no more than it is a rule known only to apply in this one unit.

 

I did not understand that it applied to anyone in the congregation who was not a Scout.  Perhaps it does.

Edited June 20, 2016 by TAHAWK

[John-in-KC]

If BSA isn't going to monitor the charter agreements, then it is up to the individual scouts and their families to determine if they are getting the BSA program or not.  It's rather unfortunate in a climate of trustworthy and ethical standards that the customer still needs to adhere to the "buyer beware" mentality.

If there is an issue about a chartered partner abusing the terms of the charter (license), the reporting path is direct contact leaders (SM/CM/Adv/CC) to unit commissioner, who in turn contacts the district commissioner and the district executive.  The DC/DE in turn assess what level, if any, of intervention they need to use to bring the partner back into compliance.

 

There are times direct contact leaders think there's an issue ... but cooler heads up the food chain decide otherwise.  Remember, Scouting has limited resources in manpower, and enforces only what it needs to.

[John-in-KC]

Post Scriptum:  There is never such a thing as no unit commissioner.  If there is no volunteer performing that function, the District Commissioner has the duty.  If no district commish, the Council Commish and the DE have the duty.

[King Ding Dong]

If there is an issue about a chartered partner abusing the terms of the charter (license), the reporting path is direct contact leaders (SM/CM/Adv/CC) to unit commissioner, who in turn contacts the district commissioner and the district executive.  The DC/DE in turn assess what level, if any, of intervention they need to use to bring the partner back into compliance.

 

There are times direct contact leaders think there's an issue ... but cooler heads up the food chain decide otherwise.  Remember, Scouting has limited resources in manpower, and enforces only what it needs to.

Thank goodness we have a free press and vibrant social media when that process doesn't work out so well.

[MrBob]

"extracurricular"?  Scouting is part of the Youth Ministry of the church. 

 

I did not understand that it applied to anyone in the congregation who was not a Scout.  Perhaps it does.

he did mention a few pages back that it applied equally to both boys and girls, and since there are no girls in a boy scout troop, one can conclude that it applies to more than just Boy Scouts.

 

by "extracurricular", I meant "anything and everything not specifically and exclusively related to Confirmation".   e.g. "extracurricular to Confirmation"

Edited June 20, 2016 by MrBob

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm...

 

I'm not sure why you're worryin' this to death, @@TAHAWK? 

 

@DavidCO has said that he's the AD and COR for Catholic school, if I'm rememberin' right.  His troop is an extracurricular activity of da school.   As COR he's got the authority to set da CO's rules for their Scouting program, but he's make it clear that this is comin' from above... meaning the IH and da school youth ministry team.

 

The rule is that no school extracurricular service projects are to conflict with da confirmation service time.  That applies to da scout troop, da band, the National Honor Society, etc.

 

Even I as an unrepentant Protestant fellow know that confirmation class in Catholic schools and Sunday schools is a one-academic-year program.  Around here da service requirements are pretty hefty, eh?  More service hours on an individual basis than we require of some  full Eagle projects.   So from where I sit, this is an effort by da school to protect the kids as much as anything.   It gives 'em some space to really work their confirmation service hours without other school programs piling on and makin' it hard for a lad to get confirmed.

 

As BSA council volunteers and commissioners and whatnot, we would never presume to interfere in da management of the Chartered Partner in the way yeh seem to want.  We'd be skewered and shishkabobbed on da front lawn by our SE if nuthin' else.   I'd be gettin' da charcoal ready if it was one of our commissioners.   I did once hear of an SE who decided to get meddlesome in our region.  Da pastor called up his friend and co-religionist on da Relationships Committee, and shortly thereafter da SE was skewered and shishkabobbed on da front lawn. 

 

If some 17 year old lad comes to us and there's no way for him to earn Eagle, we might proceed under Disputed Circumstances, but that's a BSA decision about our award, not a decision about da merits of the CO's religious education position.  There's a difference, eh?  Da BSA is the final arbiter for who it gives its awards to, but the CO is da final arbiter for their program.  They are our customer, eh?  And da customer is always right.

 

Beavah

[TAHAWK]

I distinguish between what a CO is entitled to do and what it can do.

 

Given the B.S.A's language in the Guide to Advancement and the statement of the spokesperson for the B.S.A.  advancement team quoted above, it does not appear that B.S.A . agrees with David's CO about what it is entitled to do, although, as a practical matter, units very rarely have their charters pulled.