Scoutmaster denies 17 year old Life Scout Eagle

[Beavah]

However, when an SM does something that is contrary to the BSA's rules, it should go to the CC.  If the CC doesn't correct it, it should go to the COR.  If that doesn't work, try the IH.  At that point you have everyone in the CO saying we know the SM violated the rules and we don't care.  Then you go to District and Council or even National.  The problem only escalates is the CO doesn't do anything about it.

 

 

Yah, and I reckon at that point yeh have managed to annoy everybody and they've all rolled their eyes and wished you'd just go away.  Probably someone along da way has insisted on it, much like what happened to @@SSF.   

 

Da BSA provides materials for a youth program.  We expect COs and unit leaders to adapt it to their needs.  We expect unit leaders to sometimes struggle with it, sometimes try different things, sometimes get creative.  Scouting is not "rules", not anywhere in da world.  It's sharin' ideas and approaches and offerin' guidance and training. 

 

Yeh need to think about Scoutin' as relationships, not as laws and contracts.

 

Relationships have their conversations and their back-and-forths and whatnot.   But all of that is to be helpful and supportive, eh?   Da goal is to preserve da relationships.   Da relationship between da CO and da BSA, da relationship between families and unit leaders, the relationships between kids.

 

When yeh choose to put on da self-righteous / precision scouting / rules-not-relationships / I want my kid to get his  hat and go chargin' off to do battle against da evildoers, yeh do nuthin' but damage, eh?   Damage to kids, damage to units, damage to Scouting.

 

As da actual outcomes for @@SSF and his kids and troop have demonstrated.  

 

Only da BSA can interpret da BSA's "rules", eh?  Not any of us, at least not when we're not wearin' our tabs and campaign hats.  And da BSA doesn't interpret deviations in Advancement Method, or Uniform Method, or Outdoors Method, or any of that as somethin' that means yeh aren't doin' Scouting and don't merit a charter.  So if we're bein' Trustworthy, we have to acknowledge that, eh?  

 

Da BSA itself believes Scoutin' is about relationships and maintaining relationships, not about laws and contracts.

 

Yah, I think da SM and Committee could have done better on their side maintainin' relationships, eh?  I've seen that sort of reaction in folks sometimes (like right here ) when folks get all hot-and-bothered.   If I'd been servin' @@SSF's troop I would have tried to walk 'em back from the cliff the same way I tried to walk @@SSF back, eh?  At this point, though, it's water under da bridge.

 

Beavah

[Beavah]

 

There are things in life for which we can turn the other cheek, but this is not one of them.

 

 

Yah, hmmmm....

 

We all get upset from time to time, eh?  Are yeh really sure that da lesson yeh want to teach your boys is that an award in a kids extracurricular program is so important that yeh must ignore the words of Jesus himself as written in the Bible?   Now, to be fair, I don't know if you're a Christian, but da quote was about if someone physically attacked you yeh should let him hit you again, eh?  If he stole your coat, yeh should give him your cloak as well. 

 

Makin' a lad spend a few more nights out camping with his buddies in order to get a patch in a kids' program ain't even close.

 

Yeh may think me unfair or harsh, but I'm speakin' as a fellow parent, eh?   You're makin' your kids' extracurricular awards way too much a part of your own ego, mate.   Some of us as parents were perfectly happy when junior only made it to First Class.     Yah, yah, Eagle was a big thing in your life, but yeh have to give your boys space to make it their own, eh?  Not somethin' of their dad's.  There's no reason why your whole family has to "try to get through this."  This is your son's to get through, eh?  Not yours.  Nuthin' worse than adults gettin' caught up in teen drama.  Bad for the adults.  Horrible for the kids.

 

For the rest of your boys' lives they will be faced with subjective evaluations of their behavior, skills, and character, eh?   By their professors, by their employers, by their girlfriends.  Especially by their girlfriends!   Subjective evaluations are part of life.  Negative evaluations are part of life.  Annoying extra work because someone else screwed up is a part of life. 

 

Help your sons to Be Prepared by givin' 'em the room to experience that and learn how to deal with it wisely and prudently now, where it really doesn't matter as much.

 

Is burnin' bridges really what yeh want to teach 'em?

 

Beavah

Edited June 10, 2016 by Beavah

[MrBob]

Seriously, guys... what part of "No council, committee, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to, or subtract from, advancement requirements. There are limited exceptions relating only to youth members with special needs. For details see section 10, “Advancement for Members With Special Needs.â€" are you not understanding?

[TAHAWK]

It would probably be as well not to discuss whether one interpretation of one religion controls all behavior in Boy Scouting - controls over the clear description of the program a CO promises to offer.- when it's clear, as it is here.

 

if not, one might refer to how to deal with moneychangers and how those moneychangers just wished He would go away. 

 

 

As there is a rule about rolling out comparison's to Nazis, there should be a rule about invoking Jesus to defend the indefensible.

 

 

Do they "have" to follow the rules they promised to follow?  As a practical matter, they probably do not have to keep their promises.

 

 

Again with the advocacy of strict adherence to rules that clearly violate the applicable rules.  

 

 

And I would still take by kids to another until so they could see adults following Scouting's value of honor, integrity, and servant leadership.

[Fehler]

Through all this, I find it amusing that the Guide to Advancement is held up like a stone tablet, but the Guide to Safe Scouting is laughed out of the room.

[David CO]

Through all this, I find it amusing that the Guide to Advancement is held up like a stone tablet, but the Guide to Safe Scouting is laughed out of the room.

 

Yes, that is funny.

 

In another thread, I was criticizing Stosh for not following the rules.  In this thread, I think he's being to rigid.  In yet another thread, we were together, shoulder to shoulder.

 

The irony is not lost on me.  We do each have our priorities, don't we?

Edited June 10, 2016 by David CO

[TAHAWK]

Through all this, I find it amusing that the Guide to Advancement is held up like a stone tablet, but the Guide to Safe Scouting is laughed out of the room.

By some.  Just as the Guide to Advancement is laughed out of the room by some - on various grounds.  In part, these phenomena may be attributable to the very human tendency to have greater confidence in one's own judgments than those of strangers who reach decisions by a relatively secret process to which we are not admitted.  It's the "they" thing.

[Hedgehog]

When yeh choose to put on da self-righteous / precision scouting / rules-not-relationships / I want my kid to get his  hat and go chargin' off to do battle against da evildoers, yeh do nuthin' but damage, eh?   Damage to kids, damage to units, damage to Scouting.

 

@@Beavah you are not the first person in my life to criticize me for standing up for my principles.  I've stood by my principles even when I knew the outcome would be better if I just "got along" or "went along."  I will always take the side of a child when an adult uses their position to disadvantage a child.  I will always take the side of following the rules even if it means damaging relationships.  I will always speak out when I see something that is wrong regardless of who I'm speaking out against.  I will never just stand by when I see an injustice - no matter how small.  

 

SSF's boys have a standing invitation to join our Troop.  I'm more than happy to help out with their Council if they need to do the Eagle under contested circumstances. if that becomes necessary I'm ready to talk to SSF's son to help him prepare for the EBOR and help him stand proud for his accomplishments.

 

You are more than welcome to advocate standing by, getting along and maintaining relations and @DavidCO is more than welcome to insist that the CO is always right.  I prefer to judge each set of facts on its circumstances and decide what to do based on my principles.  

 

With that, I'm out of this thread.  We are just going around in circles.  SSF did what was required and we need to wait and see what happens.  SFF knows how to send me a message if I'm needed to be "helpful."  

[Stosh]

 

A Scout is Obedient.

 

A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them.

 

 

 

 

 

I post this not for the Eagle candidate, but for the SM.  It's time he/she starts living the Scout Law they are supposedly teaching.

 

[David CO]

Let me give you an example of what I believe "consistent with" means.

 

Before I formed my unit, back when I was a young Health and Science teacher, I was using some Boy Scout merit badge booklets to teach a certain topic in my class which the text didn't cover very well.  I bought them at the council store.

 

The woman in charge of the store noticed that I shopped there a lot,  I was one of her best customers, and mentioned it to the DE, who then set up an appointment to meet with me.  At the end of that meeting, I was a merit badge counselor.  

 

We came to an agreement that day.  Boy Scouts who successfully completed my class could be signed off on that merit badge.

 

Now, keep in mind, my class included a lot of other educational materials in addition to what was required by the merit badge.  But that was OK.  I could require the boys to learn more than the BSA requirements because it was part of a class.  In order to get the merit badge, they had to successfully complete the whole class.

 

This type of cooperation and collaboration between BSA and schools was very common back then.  It was a good deal for both the school and BSA.  

 

This arrangement, in my opinion, was "consistent with" the goals and objectives of both BSA and my school. 

[TAHAWK]

Very revealing example.  

[Beavah]

@@Beavah you are not the first person in my life to criticize me for standing up for my principles.  I've stood by my principles even when I knew the outcome would be better if I just "got along" or "went along."  I will always take the side of a child when an adult uses their position to disadvantage a child.  I will always take the side of following the rules even if it means damaging relationships.  I will always speak out when I see something that is wrong regardless of who I'm speaking out against.  I will never just stand by when I see an injustice - no matter how small.  

 

Yah, hmmmm...

 

I was more tryin' to inform yeh of the way da BSA looks at these things, @@Hedgehog, and how all da various levels of da BSA are goin' to react, eh?  Nobody is goin' around enforcin' every jot and tiddle of da G2A or any of the other documents that are part of our instructional Methods.   They're just instructional Methods.   When there's conflict, we don't get all up in arms about "injustice", we just have mechanisms to proceed under Disputed Circumstances.  Maybe at some point a good friend to da unit has coffee with da SM and says, "hey, have yeh thought about tryin' this?...".

 

So at some point a fellow might ask himself whether doin' things that da BSA itself isn't doin' and isn't interested in doin' is really being obedient, eh?

 

It's every fellow's right to follow his conscience and principles, but like we tell the boys every "right" comes with a responsibility, eh?  Da responsibility in this case is that we have an informed conscience.   After all, if everybody in da world stood their ground on every personal principle and perceived insult or injustice, we'd have never-ending conflict and war.   Simple obedience is da proximate cause of many of da worlds horrors.

 

From da point of view of those of us who work with a lot of units on da BSA's behalf, I can tell yeh that adult conflict in units harms a lot of kids.  It costs us units, it costs us members, it wrecks kids' scouting experience.  Not just one boy, lots of boys.   Scouters badmouthin' other scouters and units costs us reputation, it costs us kids and families, it impacts our brotherhood.  It harms kids.

 

Fannin' da flames of conflict isn't sidin' with the kids, eh? 

 

Some years back I confess I was in favor of da Iraq invasion.  Standin' on principle, I suppose.  I wasn't in favor of cutting taxes goin' into that war, that was other folks standing on their principle.  How'd that work out, eh?   Can't say it was anything but worse for both us and da people of Iraq.   Reflectin' on da outcomes of our choices is how we inform our principles and learn to make better choices.

 

Da outcomes for @@SSF's family and troop should cause us to reflect and inform our principles, so that we all can make better choices.  Me for sure, at least.

 

Beavah

Edited June 12, 2016 by Beavah

[Hedgehog]

Simple obedience is da proximate cause of many of da worlds horrors.

 

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

 

~Edmund Burke.

[Beavah]

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

 

~Edmund Burke.

 

Yah, sure.  But do yeh really want to be the one callin' fellow Scoutin' volunteers whom you've never met "evil"?

 

Da SM and the Committee Chair are standing on principle.   The parent is standin' on principle.   The boy is standin' on principle.  The Committee is standin' on principle.  You're standin' on principle.  I'm standin'... Yeesh!

 

Somewhere there's probably a poor old unit commissioner who'd just like 'em all to sit down around a campfire with a cup of coffee, and let the lads get on with playin' the game.

 

Fortitude is a fine virtue, mate, so long as it is tempered by Prudence.

 

Beavah

[David CO]

I'm encouraging our CO to insert an additional rank of "Hedgehog" between life and Eagle. Small furry friendly mammals are under represented in the BSA ranks. We have wolves, bears and Eagles. The requirements are an additional 10 nights of camping, a 50 mile backpacking trek, the Wilderness Survival merit badge plus a boating merit badge and a shooting merit badge.

 

If they do, could or should a scout challenge the CO's ability to do that?

 

That's actually a very fair question.

 

If the intent is to create an unauthorized scout rank, I think doing so would be out of line.  If, however, "hedgehog" is a term used by the CO to describe someone who has completed its own outdoor education program, independent of scouting, then no problem.

 

I think the CO does have the authority to adapt the scouting program to meet its own goals and objectives.  I'll give you an example.

 

My CO has a service requirement that members are expected to complete as part of their preparation for Confirmation.   The CO doesn't want boys to be doing any other service projects that might compete with their time and energies until after they have received the Sacrament of Confirmation.

 

We won't approve an Eagle project until after Confirmation.