Adult-led troops

[Stosh]

Well, that's interesting because my family answered that question when we crossed over. We could have gone with the one of the mega troops (120+) in our area that use the "boy led" catch phrase like Nike uses "Just Do It", but we decided to join a smaller (50-75) person troop where the boys ran the show. Still went and did 90% of the fun stuff the mega troop did. In fact, we got in to some things they couldn't because they were too big.

 

During the last seven years my kid has had the opportunity to learn and grow. He's a real leader with strong planning and outdoor skills. Rather than have adults do stuff for him he's done them for himself. He's not felt he miss out on anything.

 

How do I know the difference. I look in Scouting Magazine and see my kid's Eagle project listed in their before/after section and just smile. The entire thing was planned soup to nuts by him. Pouring concrete, laying stone, ordering materials, seeking funding, managing Sweet 16 and all the other stuff...all him.

 

And then I look at the Eagle projects from the mega troop. A simple park bench in a park that looks like it came from a kit and assembled by 4 adults and 4 Scouts. I just sit back and smile.

 

Careful now, people will begin to call you a heretic too for suggesting there is a difference between Eagles.    I for one have felt proud of all my Eagles for the reasons you identify. 

 

One of my Eagles just got accepted into a prestigious college because of his undergraduate work on a national program of which he is a co-author.  This is the scout I talked about that needed an additional 6 months of leadership before I recommended him for Eagle.  By the way the prestigious college that wants him is Cambridge, the one in England.  He turned out to be a Real Eagle after all.  

 

Eagle Mills just don't seem to generate the same reaction for me as the boys that do it right.

[Krampus]

Careful now, people will begin to call you a heretic too for suggesting there is a difference between Eagles.  

 

We all know there is. It is not the project that makes one a better Eagle, it is what they did on their path to Eagle.

 

Do I have Eagles I wish I had not moved on? Yes, of course. Out of the 110+ our unit has awarded over the many years, there have been 2-3 that -- IMHO -- did the absolutely bear minimum to move on. Are they lesser Eagles than others? Strictly speaking, no. Are they lesser in their growth and development than they could have been (and comparatively to other Eagles), then yes.

 

The irony is that these were all top-notch honor students. Essentially they did the bear minimum to get by in Scouting, whereas, they would never even think of short-changing themselves academically. 

[Stosh]

We all know there is. It is not the project that makes one a better Eagle, it is what they did on their path to Eagle.

 

Do I have Eagles I wish I had not moved on? Yes, of course. Out of the 110+ our unit has awarded over the many years, there have been 2-3 that -- IMHO -- did the absolutely bear minimum to move on. Are they lesser Eagles than others? Strictly speaking, no. Are they lesser in their growth and development than they could have been (and comparatively to other Eagles), then yes.

 

The irony is that these were all top-notch honor students. Essentially they did the bear minimum to get by in Scouting, whereas, they would never even think of short-changing themselves academically. 

 

There are those that get Eagle for themselves and those that get Eagle so they can "help other people at all times." 

[Beavah]

Yah, Tatung, what you're describin' is fairly common, eh?    It comes from well-meaning adults who are usually (but not always) newer to da Scouting game.  Just like most youth leaders start out by tryin' to order folks around and then gradually develop other approaches, most adult leaders start out by directin' things as adults, and then gradually try other approaches.

 

I don't reckon it's quite as harmful as some others here are implyin'.  It doesn't produce as much growth in da long run, but it still produces some.  After all, every other activity in boys' lives these days is adult run, and they still learn things in school and band and soccer and theater and such.

 

There's also the flipside, eh?  Sometimes inexperienced adults get a bit too "hands off" or "sit in da easy chair" about youth run, and that's no good either.  Kids in the beginnin' do need to see good performance so that they know what it looks like and what to work toward.  Hopefully they see it from older boys but lots of times troops aren't there yet.  Besides, adults are their model of leadership, and if da model of leadership is to do nuthin' and have younger folks work, then that's what they'll aspire to as older scouts. 

 

All things in balance.

 

If yeh have a troop that's a bit too much on the adult-led side I've never found that yeh can argue 'em into youth led.  Everybody believes they're youth led, eh?    It's better to inspire 'em in small steps.   One thing that can work is to take an adult or two and some senior PLC boys and visit another troop that's really more youth led.  More for a campout than a meeting, eh?   Seein', touchin', and tastin' new ways of doin' things helps a lot more than talkin' through lots of theory or quotin' BSA books at folks.

 

Beavah

[TAHAWK]

"Everybody believes they're youth led, eh?"

 

"SPL, have the troop form up."

 

I suggest that the rallying cry "Youth led" needs to be put back in the box and replaced by "Patrol Method." We have a "youth-led troop" nearby, but it has no patrols.

[Eagledad]

There are those that get Eagle for themselves and those that get Eagle so they can "help other people at all times." 

What is that saying, there is no selfless act.

 

What is it about the steps to earning Eagle that are supposed to make that person special? 

 

As a SM, I never paid much attention to the scouts's advancement. More accurately I never took it or made it personal. Growth and maturity are my responsibility, ambition is their responsibility.

 

About the only thing that stands out to me as a specific for Eagle advancement is the Eagle project. But even then I don't really pay that much attention because I have over the years already learned the scout's temperament, character and personality in the actions planning, leading and managing. Rarely is the character of the Eagle Scout different from when he was a First Class, Star and Life Scout. I know the scout pretty well by the time he is working on his project, so my respect for the scout doesn't change when he gets Eagle.

 

What has the Eagle scout done that sets him to such high expectations over any other scout?

 

When my dad earned Eagle back in the 40's, he said that a local judges were the EBOR because at that time in our culture judges were expected to have high moral character and the best judges of it. So is the Eagle really just about character? What about skills? I once read that the Army looked specifically for Eagles for the D-Day invasion because they without question were leaders and knew first-aid. Pretty tall respect for such an important event in history. I also learned that in the day, less than 3% of all scouts earned Eagle. I was a scout in the 60's in a Troop of 80 for five years and we only had one Eagle during that time.

 

Of course when I see an Eagle do something that is not expected from an Eagle, I am disappointed. But thinking back on all the Eagles acquaintances and scouts over my lifetime (that is a lot), I can honestly say that most of them have above average character in most ways. True, Eagles do learn more first-aid than most people and they get to try their hand a leadership as well, but could it be possible that most Eagles are just representative of who they are rather than what scouting did for them? 

 

Oh of course I've seen immature Eagles do some immature things, but their was still something a little special about them. The one and only scout I can remember who I felt maybe lacked in showing the Eagle character was pushed hard by his parents. Good kid but never had a chance to follow his own dream and you could see it in his eyes. Our youngest Eagle at 14 is now a very highly respected software inventor. But I remember a 14 year old very nerdy scout who on some days challenge my patience. The reason he got his Eagle was because he was very ambitious and smart enough to sail through Merit Badges.But was this scouts selfless in his character? Very much so. He had shed his immaturity by 16 years old and was a enjoyable adult to be around. He is still a nerd, but he is showing off his leadership skills as the CEO of a very successful company. What is very interesting about this young man is that his ambition has always been about challenging himself. It has never been about material rewards. He only got the Eagle because it was handed to him. It was never a big deal.

 

I struggle to judge the expectations of Eagles because I've got to know about the real life trials these men go through before and after they earn the Eagle. While many have their bad moments in life, they seem to still stand above most in the way they treat other people. 

 

Even here on this forum, the Eagles kind of stand out. 

 

Barry

Edited April 14, 2016 by Eagledad

[Krampus]

 

Even here on this forum, the Eagles kind of stand out. 

 

 

Sometimes for the wrong reasons. The best volunteers and SMs I have seen in my Scouting experiences have been guys who never made Eagle. They came close, but never made it. Their dedication now seems to be compensation on their part for that perceived "failure". They've been, by far, the best adults in our program.

 

Those guys who made Eagle? About 50% walk on water. The other 50% I wouldn't give you a cup of spit for.

[Eagledad]

 

Those guys who made Eagle? About 50% walk on water. The other 50% I wouldn't give you a cup of spit for.

That is interesting, I can't recall a single Eagle who thought they walked on water. Maybe it's my sunglasses; I wear polarized and sometimes they have a funny affect on things.

 

Barry

[Stosh]

Out of all the SM's and ASM's I have worked with only one former eagle with 2 palms ever sabotaged the patrol method program.  He took over the troop and ran it the way his eagle mill troop ran things.

 

Since then I have had Eagle parents helping out, but none on my staff.  If one comes along that's different, I'll reconsider, but no one's waiting in the wings any time soon.

 

Everyone gets equal billing when working with the troop.

[Krampus]

That is interesting, I can't recall a single Eagle who thought they walked on water. Maybe it's my sunglasses; I wear polarized and sometimes they have a funny affect on things.

 

Barry

 

Before I took my current role, I spent some time looking around my district and the units and their leaders. The guys that ended up volunteering for stuff or simply jumped in and got the job done. Nearly all of these guys were Life Scouts that never made Eagle. It was really eye-opening.

 

In our unit the adults who are Eagles are all great guys. But like I said, 50% have your back no matter what. The other 50% go through the motions. Same has been my experience outside the unit.

 

Now, the Eagles our unit produces? All but 2 of them during my years here are top shelf kids. They are some of the most active, polite, go-getting Type A's I've ever met.

[Eagledad]

I don't doubt your observations Krampus. I was just a little surprise. I did kind of take the "walk on water" as meaning  to have a bit of an Eagle Ego. While I have seen brand new Eagles strut around a bit, that wore off pretty fast. I have never seen it with adults. But like I said, No doubt they are out there. Could be my Ego shadowed theirs. I am not an Eagle, but I probably thought a lot of myself as a Scoutmaster.

 

Now we did have one adult Eagle whose personality always lite up the room just by his presence. But he was also an Air Force General who graduated from the Air Force Academy, so we took it in stride and really enjoyed him. Generals are a different breed.  The one benefit of his occupation was he expected respect for rank, so he gave full respect to the position of Scoutmaster, whether or not the SM deserved it. He's a good guy and we are still very good friends. He is the head of our Experimental Aircraft Association and recently got me a personal tour of a Ford Trimotor. Very cool.

 

Barry

[desertrat77]

Out of all the SM's and ASM's I have worked with only one former eagle with 2 palms ever sabotaged the patrol method program.  He took over the troop and ran it the way his eagle mill troop ran things.

Stosh, he had two palms?  That explains it (reference our previous palm bashing threads)!     

[blw2]

I made Tenderfoot, or maybe it was just Scout..... where does that put me on that pecking order 

[desertrat77]

I made Tenderfoot, or maybe it was just Scout..... where does that put me on that pecking order 

I'd say feet firmly on the ground, clear vision!

 

Regardless of what rank any of us achieved as a scout, we were all scouts.   We share common values and experiences.  That is more important than any particular rank.

[Hedgehog]

Even here on this forum, the Eagles kind of stand out. 

 

I guess that explains why I don't stand out.

 

Regardless of what rank any of us achieved as a scout, we were all scouts.   We share common values and experiences.  That is more important than any particular rank.

 

 

I was never in Boy Scouts. Dad was an Eagle, older brothers had a bad experience, I never got the opportunity.   Not sure where that puts me.

 

Honestly I'll be too busy camping four of the next six weekends (WFA training, two troop campouts and OA ordeal) to care.  I guess the dads who are Eagles in our units can figure it out for me in their free time when they are at home over all of those weekends.