Adult-led troops

[perdidochas]

My son is having a great time.  He has some friends in the troop, and he likes all the outings (kayaking, horseback riding, rock climbing, cope, to name a few).  He just finished his first year.

 

The SM talking for most of the meeting is so normal that the scouts really just don't know any different.

 

The troop has patrols, but I'm not really clear what they do.  Occasionally at troop meetings, they spend a few minutes for patrol meetings where they do stuff like menu planning.  However on outings, the troop cooks for everyone, and I believe the adult outing leader plans the menu and buys the food.  For things like camporee, the SM combines the scouts going into temporary patrols so that each patrol has enough scouts.

 

We looked at other troops in the district last year, but the other troops were pretty unimpressive.

 

How do the T21 scouts ever get enough cooking time? 

[MattHiggins]

Maybe instead of trying to influence the entire troop at once from the top down, focus on a patrol. I doubt anyone could go into a troop--especially one that sounds to be otherwise a healthy unit--and change things overnight. If your son happens to be in a new Scout patrol, start there by teaching them how to structure the patrol to be able to work independently of any adults. If they don't have well defined patrols, ask to take on a new Scout patrol, which is often a role for an ASM.

 

My second observation is a little bit of devil's advocate. How much or how little adults have to get their hands dirty changes based on who is in the troop. It isn't always perfect. Your first impression might have been different if you joined this troop five years ago or two years from now. I'm just giving the leaders the benefit of the doubt. Because they're minors, there's always some wizard behind the screen.

[Eagledad]

Maybe instead of trying to influence the entire troop at once from the top down, focus on a patrol. I doubt anyone could go into a troop--especially one that sounds to be otherwise a healthy unit--and change things overnight. If your son happens to be in a new Scout patrol, start there by teaching them how to structure the patrol to be able to work independently of any adults. If they don't have well defined patrols, ask to take on a new Scout patrol, which is often a role for an ASM.

 

Great idea Matt. I always like patrols that take on an individual personality. More adventure, better cooking, better skills, camps more,  or even dress a little different. Whatever they become, it sets them apart and many times admired by the other scouts, which may encourage other patrols to follow.

 

Barry

[Eagle94-A1]

Well this is one of the few times you and I disagree. My observation is the adults who had a scouting experience as a youth are better leaders than the adult who don't because they are just doing what they know. The adults who don't have that experience aren't lazy, they just do only what they know. That is not always the case, but in general adults have good intentions.

 

The difference between fair programs and good programs comes down more to "passion" in my opinion. How many adults are volunteering in the BSA? How many adults are members of the forum? It's fair to say that most members of the forum have the passion. Do the main leaders of this troop have passion? My wife has passion for yard work. She loves to get her hands in soil and make things grow. I don't have that passion. My passion is riding machines that require gasoline, so I would rather mow the grass. And I do a good job mowing the grass. My planting lacks enthusiasm and it shows.

 

As a boy run purist, I used to think just like TAHAWK about no harm programs, but I don't now. While I was a SM, my impressions of adult run programs was they do more harm than good. I gave those adults very little respect for their time. But when I was the Council Junior Leadership Development Chairman, I got to work close with older scouts (17 to 20 year olds) from the those programs and I became very impressed. I do agree with TAHAWK that the BSA does a terrible job teaching patrol method. As a Council and District volunteer spending many hours working to help units improve, I started to understand that maybe 10 percent of adults in the pool of volunteers have all the qualities required to create and manage the kind of perfect programs members of this forum keep preaching about. So, if I can still get at least 70% of those other adults to produce good scouts from a "no harm" program, I'm good with that. I can either work with them, or against them. I tried both and the program was much more productive when I worked with them.

 

Barry

 

If that is true, and upon reflection it probably is, then I see why the troop I'm in folded a while ago. The Eagle I've been discussing in the other thread was an Eagle just before the troop folded. So if he is modeling what he learned as a Scout, and if the situation in the troop does continue, then I do see the troop dying again.

 

I remember a troop growing up that was entirely adult run, specifically SM run. Yes the PLs and SPL were elected, the patrols selected meals and did duty rosters, but the SM was the puppetmaster, and the PLC his puppets. I admit, they looked good, won lots of interpatrol/intertroop awards at summer camp and camporees, etc. But the minute the SM stepped down, the troop declined and eventually folded within 6 months. No adult could do everything the SM did, and the youth could not do squat on their own.

 

My troop was not perfect, we had our issues. But we were Scout led. When our SM backed out of a lot of stuff due to work and health, the Scouts really didn't notice. Heck I didn't find out he had health issues and stepped down for 4 months after he had resigned. And I only found out when I talked to him about my Eagle COH! That was the type of troop I was in. We had a "paper SM" and none of the Scouts realized it. It was announced 2 months after my ECOH at the Christmas COH/ recharter time.

[Eagledad]

 

My troop was not perfect, we had our issues. But we were Scout led. When our SM backed out of a lot of stuff due to work and health, the Scouts really didn't notice. Heck I didn't find out he had health issues and stepped down for 4 months after he had resigned. And I only found out when I talked to him about my Eagle COH! That was the type of troop I was in. We had a "paper SM" and none of the Scouts realized it. It was announced 2 months after my ECOH at the Christmas COH/ recharter time.

It can go both ways. Interesting story: We have a Troop in our District that has a tradition for being one of the best troops in our town for over 70 years. Typically Scoutmasters from this troop end up doing great things at the District and Council levels. Typically Scoutmasters from this troop become Silver Beavers. And they deserve it because they are the cream of the crop volunteers.

 

 Anyway, this troop had two really really good Scouts who had the talents to run a troop. They were good friends of my son, so I knew them well. The Scoutmaster and ASM who were boy run savvy gave these boys as much rope running the troop as they could handle, and they could handle more than most adults. During their last three years, the ASM took over as the new SM and the two scouts alternated as the SPL position. It was just a title because the two work closely together in running the troop.

 

The Scoutmaster was very capable and respected and became District and Council training course directors during his SM tenure. ALL appeared well from the outside and the Scoutmaster was about to earn his Silver Beaver. The Troop was doing well and doubling in size.

 

Then the two scouts aged out of the troop and left for school in the East. The PLC was without a leader and the SM didn't know how to get younger scouts up to speed. See it wasn't that the SM was a bad leader, he let these two young men run the troop, and run it very well. But what he didn't do was teach these young men about considering the future of the troop after they left. 

 

As someone said, it is easier for adults to do the work then to train and teach the scouts. That is exactly what these two scouts did to their troop. They carried the load of running the troop because it was easier than watching the younger scouts struggle to meet their expectations. They didn't see the harm they we doing, but the SM should have. However, he was so busy with his other responsibilities, and the troop was running so well that he neglected to ask a few questions. In one years time, the troop lost a 3rd of the scouts because it stopped functioning. The SM (who is a very fine person) was so embarrassed that he retired as SM and disappeared from scouting. 

 

So, it can happen to just about anybody, including one of the best SMs in the district with two of the best scouts in the district. 

 

As I got over myself as the district boy run guru, I started to pay more attention to adults than me. You have heard me say before that Scouting is an adult program to help boys become adults. It is not a boys program to be left up to boys. I only have to point out that every time a problem pops up on this forum, it is blamed on the adults. And as a result of some members here pushed it to the point that adults are in general viewed negatively. It is a ridiculous assessment of our wonderful program because adults are critical to the success of the program. But, it is also true that a troop is only as good as the adults running it. And the adults are only as good as their experience and training. 

 

As a result of my experience in scouting, I know that one person can influence big changes. But for those changes to have a positive lasting impression, they have to work within the mentality of the average volunteer. That is why I harp on not building a program that is counter to the BSA materials. How can the average person do at least the minimum average performance if they have no resources to go from? Blow hard adults who think think themselves as modern day Badon Powels are more often than not wrecking balls. 

 

I learned from a smart CEO that there are some basics to building success; 1. Have a vision or goal. 2. Have a basic plan toward that vision, 3. Have a team that believes in the vision and the plan. Once you get those basics, you can move mountains. In your case Eagle94, your troop has none of the three. 

 

Actually Blws problem is harder because he is in a successful program. The problem is the program vision isn't what he or his son want. A lot of folks here want to put down those adults, but really the problem is blws. Not that he can't make changes within the program, he sure can. But it will be a tough road. I like the idea of starting small. 

 

All this to say that you are going to have to learn how to be a better cat herder. You have good vision and method. Now you need to work on your sales skills so you can build the team. Get that team, and your wife will come over to your troop in a heartbeat. 

 

Barry

[blw2]

good stuff...

but not totally on with regards to my situation, close though

You are right on, it's a hard and tough road to change.

first off, I'm not sure I would say the our program is successful 100%

and honestly, I'm fairly sure that the SM's vision is at least pretty close to the ideal I imagine, but he's not being pushy or firm about making the shift.... or perhaps he knows but can't.

So it's not really that it's not the program that son wants, he knows no different and so far is having fun

and he is growing from it.... so in that way it IS successful

The issue in my case (& I suspect many other folks too) is that I know the program isn't "all that it could be".  Do I want it all for my son, and his friends... sure I do.  That just aint realistic though.

 

 

You and your boy are a team of leaders, if he wants to stay with the troop and take care of his buddies by making it better, you need to protect him and give him the positive opportunity to step up and lead.  In support of his efforts, it may end up your "job" to see to it the adults stay out of the way.  The problem is not really the adults, the problem is the damage the adults are doing to the boys.  The boys signed on to learn leadership, character maturity and being successful in life.  That is the opportunity they are entitled to have.  

 

If the adults want to work on their problem of interfering, that's great, but they need to get out of the way and let the boys run THEIR program.

Regardless, while it might MY problem as Eagledad put so well, I'm not in a position to affect real and meaningful change over the short haul for my son. What I can do, and others like me too, is to make a difference in little ways, hopefully helping other adults to see the light.

 

While I still don't really classify it as damage or harm, I CAN see the point that in not doing it to the ideal they are in a way doing indirect harm... just as in Eagledad's story, a good example is not being set in some ways.

[Stosh]

good stuff...

but not totally on with regards to my situation, close though

You are right on, it's a hard and tough road to change.

first off, I'm not sure I would say the our program is successful 100%

and honestly, I'm fairly sure that the SM's vision is at least pretty close to the ideal I imagine, but he's not being pushy or firm about making the shift.... or perhaps he knows but can't.

So it's not really that it's not the program that son wants, he knows no different and so far is having fun

and he is growing from it.... so in that way it IS successful

The issue in my case (& I suspect many other folks too) is that I know the program isn't "all that it could be".  Do I want it all for my son, and his friends... sure I do.  That just aint realistic though.

 

 

Regardless, while it might MY problem as Eagledad put so well, I'm not in a position to affect real and meaningful change over the short haul for my son. What I can do, and others like me too, is to make a difference in little ways, hopefully helping other adults to see the light.

 

While I still don't really classify it as damage or harm, I CAN see the point that in not doing it to the ideal they are in a way doing indirect harm... just as in Eagledad's story, a good example is not being set in some ways.

 

  This is where I push my boys' leadership to the limits.  Without POR, without anything other than pure leadership, lead!    The coach doesn't play the game, the orchestra conductor makes no noise, the driver's ed teacher sits in the passenger seat.  Yet they all lead.  The boys say this is the most challenging part of leadership, but they all seem to figure it out and do great things "from behind the scenes".  It's a real treat to watch.

 

This is your challenge now @@blw2 you need to figure out how to lead from the back seat!    The secret???  Take care of your boys, they will follow those that do!  So will other leaders! 

[SSScout]

Offer to organize a "Scout Leadership Weekend"  and model it after the National program:  http://www.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/ILST%20FINALS%202011%20-%20Item%20Number%20511-016.pdf   It is official BSA, the PTB may have a hard time not allowing it.   You might even promote it as making THEIR job easier!  

 

and/or promote your local Council  NAYLE program, assuming they have one like NCAC's :   http://www.ncacbsa.org/training/national-youth-leadership-training/   which comes from:   http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/Resources/NAYLE.aspx   

 

If the adults don't see the benefit of "Train'em, Trust'em, Let'em Lead"..... then perhaps by encouraging the boys to improve it on their own, or by their realization of what they are missing out on,  things can change , a little at a time. 

 

Having fun in Scouts is important, but seeing the boys  make the fun themselves is better.    

[Mountaineer]

This whole thing is really pretty simple. It starts at the top and filters down to all leaders and parents.

 

"Never do for a scout what they can do for themselves".

 

If the scout cannot  handle a task then the PL or SPL needs to address it. Perhaps the scout or a group of scouts need training or need to be paired up with a patrol member that can help.

[Eagle94-A1]

This whole thing is really pretty simple. It starts at the top and filters down to all leaders and parents.

 

"Never do for a scout what they can do for themselves".

 

If the scout cannot  handle a task then the PL or SPL needs to address it. Perhaps the scout or a group of scouts need training or need to be paired up with a patrol member that can help.

 

One reason why my troop is going tradition patrols versus NSPs. BUT you gotta keep the adults from butting in

[Stosh]

If BSA promotes New Scout Patrols, Regular Patrols and Venture Patrols, What is a Traditional Patrol?

[Eagledad]

If BSA promotes New Scout Patrols, Regular Patrols and Venture Patrols, What is a Traditional Patrol?

Ahhh, needing to be the smartest guy in the room are you? It might have worked except you have been in the same discussions since you join the forum using "traditional patrols" to mean "Mixed aged" as opposed to "aged base" like NSPs.

 

Barry

[Krampus]

If BSA promotes New Scout Patrols, Regular Patrols and Venture Patrols, What is a Traditional Patrol?

They button on the right.

[TAHAWK]

Does it "do harm" for a Little League coach to take over pitching in a game when the kid pitchers can't find the plate? The adult is less likely to hit a batter. The game will go quicker. If it's unfair, the other team's adults can also pitch.

 

It's just that it's not the same game, and the kid pitchers are unlikely to improve when the adults get the game experience.

 

What if the goal is for the kid pitchers to get better?

[qwazse]

Does it "do harm" for a Little League coach to take over pitching in a game when the kid pitchers can't find the plate? The adult is less likely to hit a batter. The game will go quicker. If it's unfair, the other team's adults can also pitch.It's just that it's not the same game, and the kid pitchers are unlikely to improve when the adults get the game experience.What if the goal is for the kid pitchers to get better?

Well, the league may lose it's status by default. But the kids are having fun and maybe learning to hit against a really good pitcher.

But, wait! Is that little Johnny's dad stepping up to the plate as his designated hitter?