Adult-led troops

[gumbymaster]

The only advice I can offer that wasn't included in @@Sentinel947's is leading by example.

 

As an ASM, offer to be "in charge" of one of the events, camping is a good choice, but others can work as well.

Once you are in charge, make a challenge to the Scouts to take part in it - things like which patrol can put together the best menu, etc.

And then once there, maybe patrol cooking competitions to get more into patrol rather than troop cooking.

 

For an Adult looking down, You are still the Adult in charge, they are doing their activities according to your plan.

For the Scouts, they have been given an opportunity to come up with some of their own ideas.

 

It's a baby step, but it may be the best you can get away with initially, then take a larger step the next time.

 

Good luck.

 

[Sentinel947]

Another option is if your troop doesn't do alot of backpacking is to become a Backpacking MBC. 

http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Backpacking

 

Some of the requirements require the scouts to plan and execute their trips......boom, patrol method for the scouts who want to do the badge. 

 

Since the troop is heavily adult lead, you offering the badge to the troop is something the SM will not veto. 

The only question is, are you a backpacking enthusiast? I'm going this weekend in this Midwestern polar vortex. For once I'm taking a personal (non- Scouting trip). One of our other ASM's is leading a different group of Scouts doing the backpacking merit badge. 

Sentinel947 
 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Sentinel947

[Eagledad]

Gumbymaster and Sentinel have good advice for encouraging change. But is change really needed in your troop?

 

I have worked with a lot of programs and the first question I always ask both here on the forum and in my district is: "What do you want your scouts to get that they aren't already getting in your program?". The motivation for change really hinges on that answer.

 

Your troop seems to be providing the expectations that apparently most families in it want. Would they want what you think the scouts are missing? That is if you can figure out what the scouts are missing. Most true boy run programs come from adults who took over poor programs or started new programs. Very rarely do successful programs invite change.

 

I can give you all the great noble reasons for changing a program toward a more boy run patrol method program provides, but some folks are satisfied with their present program. Work slowly as Gumbymaster and Sentinel suggested and measure the progress and acceptance for your troop.

 

Barry

[meyerc13]

I read your post, and wonder if you are from my town.  That sounds like some of the troops I visited as my son was getting ready to crossover this past year.  In the end, he picked the troop he liked the best.  Since I'm wrapping up my tenure as Cubmaster (and fill-in den leader), I haven't been able to visit one of their meetings yet (same day/time as our Den Meetings and Pack meetings) although I did attend a camp-out.  A number of experienced volunteers are associated with the troop, so I'm hoping that is a good sign that they know the right way to run things.  Yet I saw other troops in the area that reminded me more of Cub Scout Packs than Troops.  Sadly I'm sure that every single one of us can say the same about our own area.

[blw2]

Based on what I can tell, your experience is more or less the rule, and not the exception.

My troop is very similar in that the adults do a lot of the doing.... I'd say our SM probably has a better vision though.

 

Regardless, I went through this same question as my son was "shopping" troops a few months back.

I really want to help him to have the "best" scouting experience.... I mean get the most out of scouting that is possible for him to get.  By my thinking that mostly comes from the patrol method.

So I was getting frustrated...knowing it is not and should not be my decision, but I was frustrated because I couldn't really show my son a "real" patrol method troop.... they just don't seem to exist in our neighborhood.

 

In the end I came around to realizing something.  As long as the adult scouters are doing no harm, the scouts are getting something out of the program.  It may not be the all and everything, but something.  It was something I read in one of BP's books.  i think it was Aids to Scoutmastership that made me realize this.  

So, no harm + fun = ok, good enough

 

And it is frustrating to not be in one of those key and trusted positions to really drive a quick change

About the only thing we can do is do the best we can do in our job, and be a "cooperative volunteer"

you might want to have a listen to this

http://scoutmastercg.com/podcast-294-cooperative-volunteering/

 

So what I'm doing is to do my best to help the SM and his vision, not mine.  Hoping to gain more and more trust, learn what actually IS working with his program, and while doing my job, trying to lead by example just a bit in looking for ways to actually let the boys lead, regarding tasks that i am responsible for (treasurer in my case)

[Stosh]

If one's son is shopping around for other troops, is this really "no harm"?  Is not providing a full program, but just enough to get by really "no harm"? 

 

Is not letting the boys really lead nor teaching them leadership in an adult led program really "no harm?

 

I guess what it all comes down to is what mediocre standard will one accept as "no harm"? 

 

@@blw2 maybe someone's son who knows better will be the catalyst that moves the adult-led, troop-method troop into boy-led, patrol-method as he takes care of his boys on his way to real Eagle.    And blw2, that doesn't necessarily mean that this boy does it on his own.  As a leader, he will need followers.  It's just my opinion, but that's the opportunity I would open up to my boys.

[TAHAWK]

And "Scout-led" is just one part of the Patrol Method.  

 

Let me guess:  the Scouts do not spend most of their Scouting time functioning as patrols.  Instead, it's troop, troop, troop.

 

 

 

In the end I came around to realizing something.  As long as the adult scouters are doing no harm, the scouts are getting something out of the program.  It may not be the all and everything, but something.  It was something I read in one of BP's books.  i think it was Aids to Scoutmastership that made me realize this.  

So, no harm + fun = ok, good enough

 

Reread your BP.  The lesson you drew is just not there,  If the Scouts are stuck at beginning and do not promptly get to actual Boy Scouting, that is not something BP found acceptable. 

Non-Patrol method may be something, and it may not be "bad."  It is, however, not Boy Scouting, and any Scout who can read will see that eventually.  The Handbook explicitly promises them Scout leadership.

 

Do we want to teach that "good enough" is acceptable when there is a choice?  Is the goal for each pitch to just be near the plate or for the basketball shot to be just off the rim?  Or do we do do our "best" to try to achieve the goal?  I know what we ask the Scouts to promise.  Should we ask less of ourselves?

[blw2]

If one's son is shopping around for other troops, is this really "no harm"?  Is not providing a full program, but just enough to get by really "no harm"? 

 

Is not letting the boys really lead nor teaching them leadership in an adult led program really "no harm?

 

I guess what it all comes down to is what mediocre standard will one accept as "no harm"? 

 

@@blw2 maybe someone's son who knows better will be the catalyst that moves the adult-led, troop-method troop into boy-led, patrol-method as he takes care of his boys on his way to real Eagle.    And blw2, that doesn't necessarily mean that this boy does it on his own.  As a leader, he will need followers.  It's just my opinion, but that's the opportunity I would open up to my boys.

 

Oh sure, no doubt.

In my case when i wrote about shopping is was as he was finishing his 2nd year of WEBELOS

 

Anyway, of course he that wasn't the whole of what he was writing... but it is a valid point.  Very few programs are perfect.  That was the context more or less as I recall.  That as long as the scouter is trying, and not doing harm, that a boy will get at least something out of scouting.

as in scouting even if less than perfect, is still better than not doing scouting

& I take it to mean that by harm, he meant something like setting bad examples morally, teaching in complete opposition to the scout law, and such as that...

 

If I can come across that quote, I'll try to remember to come back here and reference it properly.

 

Oh, and Stosh... I agree with you about a boy making the change... and if I'm reading you correctly, I more or less have tried to plant that seed in my son.  I've had a few casual conversations with him about this stuff, trying to plant the seed in a positive way.

I think it's a fine line though.... if not careful, one could tarnish a boys opinion about scouting or about the troop if one were to focus so much on negative stuff.

[Stosh]

If I can come across that quote, I'll try to remember to come back here and reference it properly.

 

Oh, and Stosh... I agree with you about a boy making the change... and if I'm reading you correctly, I more or less have tried to plant that seed in my son.  I've had a few casual conversations with him about this stuff, trying to plant the seed in a positive way.

I think it's a fine line though.... if not careful, one could tarnish a boys opinion about scouting or about the troop if one were to focus so much on negative stuff.

 

Yes, you are reading it correctly, and how one opens up a new adventure, new possibilities, new opportunities in a negative way is beyond me.  I'd never use it, but if you could explain that to me, I would find it interesting.....

[Eagle94-A1]

Some said adult led is used because it's the only way adults know.  I say's its because the adults don't have the patience to do it right. I say it's because the adults do not want to do the difficult work involved in training their Scouts, trusting their Scouts, and letting them lead.

 

For those following my posts, yes it wa a rough nite.

[Stosh]

It's always more difficult to do it right than it is to just do  it.

[blw2]

Yes, you are reading it correctly, and how one opens up a new adventure, new possibilities, new opportunities in a negative way is beyond me.  I'd never use it, but if you could explain that to me, I would find it interesting.....

What I had in mind... what I was getting at by negative

is down talking about the troop/leader/etc...

so as to model bad behaviour (complaining, gossiping and talking behind someone's back, and so on)

and

firmly planting a negative idea into the boy's head that might lead to him become disenchanted with the troop, or with scouts in general, or to think badly about a leader....

 

Now different story if the situation is truly causing real harm that's one thing, but for the average adult that can't let go it's better to somehow spin it positively, to help him see opportunities, or maybe to spark ideas on how he might work through or around the issue...

[Stosh]

You and your boy are a team of leaders, if he wants to stay with the troop and take care of his buddies by making it better, you need to protect him and give him the positive opportunity to step up and lead.  In support of his efforts, it may end up your "job" to see to it the adults stay out of the way.  The problem is not really the adults, the problem is the damage the adults are doing to the boys.  The boys signed on to learn leadership, character maturity and being successful in life.  That is the opportunity they are entitled to have.  

 

If the adults want to work on their problem of interfering, that's great, but they need to get out of the way and let the boys run THEIR program.

[Eagledad]

Some said adult led is used because it's the only way adults know.  I say's its because the adults don't have the patience to do it right. I say it's because the adults do not want to do the difficult work involved in training their Scouts, trusting their Scouts, and letting them lead.

 

For those following my posts, yes it wa a rough nite.

Well this is one of the few times you and I disagree. My observation is the adults who had a scouting experience as a youth are better leaders than the adult who don't because they are just doing what they know. The adults who don't have that experience aren't lazy, they just do only what they know. That is not always the case, but in general adults have good intentions.

 

The difference between fair programs and good programs comes down more to "passion" in my opinion. How many adults are volunteering in the BSA? How many adults are members of the forum? It's fair to say that most members of the forum have the passion. Do the main leaders of this troop have passion? My wife has passion for yard work. She loves to get her hands in soil and make things grow. I don't have that passion. My passion is riding machines that require gasoline, so I would rather mow the grass. And I do a good job mowing the grass. My planting lacks enthusiasm and it shows.

 

As a boy run purist, I used to think just like TAHAWK about no harm programs, but I don't now. While I was a SM, my impressions of adult run programs was they do more harm than good. I gave those adults very little respect for their time. But when I was the Council Junior Leadership Development Chairman, I got to work close with older scouts (17 to 20 year olds) from the those programs and I became very impressed. I do agree with TAHAWK that the BSA does a terrible job teaching patrol method. As a Council and District volunteer spending many hours working to help units improve, I started to understand that maybe 10 percent of adults in the pool of volunteers have all the qualities required to create and manage the kind of perfect programs members of this forum keep preaching about. So, if I can still get at least 70% of those other adults to produce good scouts from a "no harm" program, I'm good with that. I can either work with them, or against them. I tried both and the program was much more productive when I worked with them.

 

Barry

[perdidochas]

So after being involved with my troop for awhile, I have come to the realization that the troop is pretty much totally adult led.  Sure they put on the facade of being boy run.  The SPL is in front of the troop at meetings, but he is just reading off an agenda prepared by the SM.  And a big chunk of the agenda is "here is the SM to talk about XYZ".  There is also a youth "in charge" of most outings, but their job is mostly to just promote the event (again usually by reading off a script prepared by the adult in charge of the trip).

 

The thing is, the troop has an excellent program.  There are outings at least every month, the troop owns a ton of camping equipment, and there are a bunch of experienced and committed adults (even if they are the ones running the show).  The boys are having a lot of fun, probably more than they would in a "less polished" troop that actually has a boy-led program.  It is just really hard to leave a troop like my current one for one that might not have as strong of a program.

 

I understand the boys liking it. It's actually more fun to just be on a ride, than to run things. That said, I don't see how the above does much for the older scouts.  It also indicates a lack of trust by the adults, and that is not good for the boys.