Adult-led troops

[Krampus]

I wonder if Cliff Clavin was an Eagle Scout?

...with ten palms.

[Eagle94-A1]

I don't know who used the term Parour Scout first, but an audio recording from the 1920s  has BP using the terrm.

 

Going off on a tangent, when has that NOT happened ,  But wife got me a book called LEFT OF BANG about the USMC hunter-scout program.  Not very far into it, but a lot of it so far is observing and being aware of your surroundings to ID threats.o reminds me of BP's yarns in the original BSHB.

[Stosh]

A lot of the early commissioned literature of the BSA uses the term frequently.  That's where I first came across it.  I have also found reference to it in pre-BSA literature that sparked an interest in BSA commissioning certain authors to write stories for the scout to be reading.

 

I believe it was one of Percy Keese Fitzhugh's Westy Martin series books that talks about Westy going out west and is all excited about meeting some famous Indian scout that he could visit with and learn some great things to take back home to the boys in New Jersey.  Well he gets out there and quickly realizes that this guy is just a publicity seeker making money off his reputation as a "scout" and is not really a scout as Westy experienced it.    Kinda like coming to the realization that not all those who call themselves scouts are Real Scouts.  And yes, I have used that term as well.

 

I find it rather ironic that people today get upset when there are those around who seem to identify Real Scouts and Parlour Scouts when it's some kind of recent development in the scouting program.  Sorry, but the problem of selfish and self-less scouts has been around since the very beginning.  There are those that join the program for reasons other than what it was intended.  I guess it's just going to always be that way.

[Tampa Turtle]

We all know there is. It is not the project that makes one a better Eagle, it is what they did on their path to Eagle.

 

Do I have Eagles I wish I had not moved on? Yes, of course. Out of the 110+ our unit has awarded over the many years, there have been 2-3 that -- IMHO -- did the absolutely bear minimum to move on. Are they lesser Eagles than others? Strictly speaking, no. Are they lesser in their growth and development than they could have been (and comparatively to other Eagles), then yes.

 

The irony is that these were all top-notch honor students. Essentially they did the bear minimum to get by in Scouting, whereas, they would never even think of short-changing themselves academically. 

It is easy to forget this. We have a couple boys who had some developmental issues that made the Eagle really hard for them. Maybe the project was not as impressive as some and maybe they needed more support but for them it was an enormous accomplishment. 

[Tatung42]

Sorry to bump my post, but just to give some examples of how egregiously adult led my troop is.

 

 

From the PLC that we had last week:

 

Based on some other suggestions in this thread, I tried to plant the youth led seed into one of the scouts.  So at the PLC, the scout made a suggestion, and the scoutmaster immediately responded with "there is no time for that, and in the future if you have an idea, you need to clear it with me first before bringing it to the PLC."

 

 

From the outing we had this last weekend:

There was a new scout who was minorly misbehaving (nothing unsafe that required immediate adult intervention).  Based on my coaching, one of the older scouts went over to the new scout to talk to him.  Just as the two scouts started talking, another adult barges over yelling "Hey stop that!" totally ignoring the fact that an older scout was already trying to correct the behavior.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Tatung42

[qwazse]

Don't apologize, this is how we get a better picture is what's going on in your troop.

 

I think I understand your other thread about boys abandoning your troop for venturing. And the one about faster hikers leaving younger ones far behind. Your troop's older boys are looking for a space of their own, and will continue to look outside of troop so long as the adults behave this way. Let's be clear, they aren't looking for someplace to cause trouble without getting caught. (Well at least most of them probably aren't.) They are looking for a place where they can be trusted to lead.

 

That's one reason the best troop campsite is a big old field with adults and patrols set 100 yards apart from each other.

 

You could, at some point ask the SM or CC why the troop looks more like an *Adult* Scout troop than a *Boy* Scout troop. In my experience, the best situation is that this is a response to some tragedy in the past. A middle-ground situation is the parents are from a "tiger" culture that expects more adult association than the usual scouting model. Worst case, SM believes in authoritarian control and no amount of literature an training will change his mind.

 

Depending on why they've gone off book may inform your next move.

[Tatung42]

Actually I almost forgot this one:

 

At a recent meeting, the scoutmaster was talking to the troop about some upcoming events.  Then the SM invited up one of the ASMs to talk about another upcoming activity.  When that ASM was done talking, he looked over to where the SM usually sits, but the SM had stepped into the other room.   The ASM then had this sorta of panicked look on his face, and he was like "well I don't know what is next on the program, but the SM will be back soon hopefully".   The whole time the SPL is sitting in front of the meeting...

Edited May 9, 2016 by Tatung42

[Krampus]

Actually I almost forgot this one:

 

At a recent meeting, the scoutmaster was talking to the troop about some upcoming events.  Then the SM invited up one of the ASMs to talk about another upcoming activity.  When that ASM was done talking, he looked over to where the SM usually sits, but the SM had stepped into the other room.   The ASM then had this sorta of panicked look on his face, and he was like "well I don't know what is next on the program, but the SM will be back soon hopefully".   The whole time the SPL is sitting in front of the meeting...

 

I feel for you. That's not good.

 

We had a similar situation but reversed. The adults were invited for what the boys call "adult announcements" to come up and talk. When we were done we tossed it over to the SPL, who had forgotten the meeting plan...had not back up. The kid took his punishment well. He admitted he screwed up and didn't have the materials for the meeting. The PLs took a 10 min break to go get some stuff from the garage to have an impromptu meeting. Wasn't perfect but they took accountability.

 

I say this because things can change. Years ago we used to be your troop. Over a 2-3 year period we were able to change. Wasn't easy, but it worked. It all starts with an SM who wants to let the boys lead AND other adults will to step aside and play a supporting role.

[Tampa Turtle]

Yes, thanks for the background. Only takes a few times us adults pull this stuff to turn off the boys who drank the youth-led Kool-Aid. And it takes real adult consensus and majority to make it happen... 

[Sentinel947]

Disclaimer, I have only read your last few posts on page 5. 

 

Tatung I think you've got the right intentions, but you are giving your Scouts whiplash. If you're telling them to do things one way, then they start doing it, and the SM or another adult jumps all over them, they are going to resent and be confused by that. 

 

You need to create a vision of what the troop will look like, and what the benefits are to doing things your way. Sell that to the SM, CC and get them on board. Then when the adults have a mostly unified vision, you can start implementing things. 

I would have some heart to hearts with some of the Scouts, and talk about their leadership, how things are, what they want to change. It gives you more security that you're doing things for their sake, and not our own. 

 

Going around the SM is just going to make him suspicious of your intentions, and you cannot win that battle directly. He can always undo what you have done. 

My Troop was never that bad, but I got our troop to make some big steps toward the patrol method by being the loyal trooper for the SM,  while at the same time, planting the Youth led and Patrol method seeds in his head. I volunteered for the annoying tasks, went on the outings that were light on adults, and generally did whatever I could support him. It took a lot of watering, but he came around to it. Had I tried to do things behind his back, he would simply have undone everything I tried to do.

 

It's hard to say, but unless you are the SM, or the CC, instituting the patrol method from any other position makes you reliant on other adults to make it happen. It's not easy or practical to do this from the ASM position. It becomes a test of your people and communication skills more than anything else. 

 

Sentinel947 

[TAHAWK]

Sentinel947 is describing what I have both seen from afar and experienced.  The SM is a "wall" that is very hard to get over to institute change.

 

Is the Troop Committee trained?

 

Do the New parents get Introduction to New Boy Scout Parents training?  http://www.scouting.org/Training/Adult/Supplemental/OrientationforNewBoyScoutParents.aspx

[Tampa Turtle]

Sentinel947 is describing what I have both seen from afar and experienced.  The SM is a "wall" that is very hard to get over to institute change.

 

Is the Troop Committee trained?

 

Do the New parents get Introduction to New Boy Scout Parents training?  http://www.scouting.org/Training/Adult/Supplemental/OrientationforNewBoyScoutParents.aspx

Alas, the SM should be the wall protecting the Youth Led from the interference of well meaning adults. 

[Stosh]

The SM is obligated to be the enabler of boy led, patrol method scouting.  If not he's not doing his job.  The program works just fine, the SM doesn't need to be some sort of "gate keeper" standing vigil to protect the good name of the BSA and it's program.  Sorry, but I left my first troop because of a SM like this and have never regretted it and never been happier dealing with boys that aren't frustrated and demoralized by hear the word NO all the time.

[ThomasG-from-Brazil]

Use games. Try out the "Democratic Game" where each patrol creates a game to be played immediately after, then makes a skit about their proposed game and its objectives; after all skits have been done, and all the troop votes on their preferred game. Then they go off and play it. Follow this with the patrols creating, instead of a game, a full troop meeting program, and again voting on the preferred proposal. Expand at will. Sometimes instead of doing the creating at the troop meeting, Patrols can hold patrol meetings at a members house, create, for example, a video about their proposal, and then the troop watches all videos at troop meeting and votes. This gives a kick start to boy involvement.

Edited May 25, 2016 by ThomasG

[TAHAWK]

Nice !