Adult-led troops

[Tatung42]

So after being involved with my troop for awhile, I have come to the realization that the troop is pretty much totally adult led.  Sure they put on the facade of being boy run.  The SPL is in front of the troop at meetings, but he is just reading off an agenda prepared by the SM.  And a big chunk of the agenda is "here is the SM to talk about XYZ".  There is also a youth "in charge" of most outings, but their job is mostly to just promote the event (again usually by reading off a script prepared by the adult in charge of the trip).

 

The thing is, the troop has an excellent program.  There are outings at least every month, the troop owns a ton of camping equipment, and there are a bunch of experienced and committed adults (even if they are the ones running the show).  The boys are having a lot of fun, probably more than they would in a "less polished" troop that actually has a boy-led program.  It is just really hard to leave a troop like my current one for one that might not have as strong of a program.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Tatung42

[Stosh]

First of all welcome to the forum.  You have successfully identified why we continue to have adult-led programs even though they are contraindicative of the Boy Scout program.  Adults will always do a better job than a bunch of kids.  The activities are like the YMCA, kids pay their money, show up, have fun, and go home.  They were entertained.  They didn't learn anything but for a while they were entertained.  Mom and Dad are happy to have spent the money.

 

If Boy Scouts were just an entertainment program this would be just fine, but it never has been and hopefully never will be a program that entertains the youth and keeps them off the streets and out of trouble.

 

I was with a troop exactly like this for a number of years and now that I have seen what a real troop can do if the boys are running it, I'll leave scouting altogether before going back to adult-led.

 

Just remember, 20 boy scouts can do a lot more than one SM and a couple of ASM's.    Scouting is a leadership program, not an extra curricular entertainment program for neighborhood boys.  Some people outside the organization think that it is and they're wrong, and some people INSIDE the organization that that it is and they're wrong, too.

[Sentinel947]

Welcome!

 

Lucky for your Troop, there is nowhere else on the internet with more Scouting experience than this forum. There a bunch of folks here who have been doing this stuff for decades on end. Some of us have absolutely faced this exact same challenge and I'm sure they'll drop in their advice when they see this thread.

 

However I'll lay out my first thoughts .

​Troops become adult lead because adults don't know better.

 

Your youth are capable. They can lead their troop. Scouting has been around for over 100 years now, trust the program.

 

Training is a good starting point, but it's only as good as the trainer. Other resources are critical to fill in the gaps. This forum, www.scoutmastercg.com , as well as a multitude of books such as Working the Patrol Method  really help fill in the blanks, and can sometimes give knowledge that can only be otherwise obtained by long hard years of experience.

 

What is your role in the Troop? If you are the SM or the Committee Chair, you are in excellent position. If you are an ASM, and you are trusted sidekick to the SM, it's possible to lead a troop back towards true north. If you are not one of those positions, the path forward is extremely difficult.

​

You know your Troop. A transition like this will face much resistance. Not just from the adults, but also your Scouts who will be wary of radical changes. You may lose adults and scouts who don't like or trust the concepts of a boy led program.

​This is a long process forward. My troop was in a somewhat similar situation to yours. In 2014 we decided it was time to make a course correction, it's been a long frustrating slog. It's been fantastic, and our program is much better because of it. Perhaps in another post, I'll explain that story, but I've already offered a massive post here. I want other people to put their two cents in.

​If your SM and CC agree to the changes you are proposing, be prepared for a long process, with plenty of set backs. Be comfortable that it will never be exactly how you envision it right now.

 

As I frequently tell my Scouts, "We do things the way we do them because nobody has bothered to question why we do it that way."

​Best of luck to you!

 

Sentinel947
 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Sentinel947

[Tatung42]

I just recently started helping out as an ASM.

 

I can pretty confidently say that there is no possible way to change the way the adult leaders in the troop think.  The SM has been in his position since the 1980's and most of his "trusted sidekicks" have been involved with the troop for 15+ years.  Everything is done his way, and he frowns upon new ideas from "rogue" ASMs like myself.

[Sentinel947]

I just recently started helping out as an ASM.

 

I can pretty confidently say that there is no possible way to change the way the adult leaders in the troop think.  The SM has been in his position since the 1980's and most of his "trusted sidekicks" have been involved with the troop for 15+ years.  Everything is done his way, and he frowns upon new ideas from "rogue" ASMs like myself.

 

Then your options are:

 

1) Get the Committee Chair to purge the old guys....

2) Put up with it.

3) Find a different Troop.

 

​Sorry I can't be more helpful....

 

 â€‹I'll be honest. There are still little useful nuggets of Scouting even in the worst adult run program. From the sounds of things, pushing real Scouting would create a civil war among the adult leadership. I'm not sure that's worth the anger and frustration that might result.

[Tatung42]

Yeah I am trying to decide between 2 and 3.  1 is also not an option, since the Committee Chair is also the scoutmaster's puppet just like the SPL.

 

Like I said above, it is just really hard to leave a troop with such a good outdoor program.

[Sentinel947]

Yeah I am trying to decide between 2 and 3.  1 is also not an option, since the Committee Chair is also the scoutmaster's puppet just like the SPL.

 

Like I said above, it is just really hard to leave a troop with such a good outdoor program.

 

What are the other troops like in your area? A troop that is less polished but trying to do things right could be a better option.

[Krampus]

Yeah I am trying to decide between 2 and 3.  1 is also not an option, since the Committee Chair is also the scoutmaster's puppet just like the SPL.

 

Like I said above, it is just really hard to leave a troop with such a good outdoor program.

Building a good outdoor program and moving to boy led is not that tough. A new troop would welcome your ideas.

[Stosh]

@@Tatung42

 

I was in your position for 13 years, it doesn't get any better.  I eventually left.

[qwazse]

Do you have land?

Offer it for patrol camping. Provide an adult site 100+ yards from where the youth will camp.

[MattR]

Thanks for joining us tatung.

 

There is a troop like this in my town. Most scouts don't know what patrol they're in. Someone tried to change it and it just made for a bloody mess. Said person eventually left. In all honesty, you should probably stop being an asm. You'll just get mad. If the cc is a "puppet" then you're already angry. That will rub off on your son.

 

You mentioned that the SPL often introduces the SM as a guest speaker. Do the scouts honestly like that? I can talk for maybe a minute. If it's a really great story I can have 3 or 4.

 

I'm curious as to how patrols work in this troop. Do they ever do anything on their own? Pick their own menus? Pick their own campsites? Have their own meetings? Pick their own patrols? Pick their own skits for campfires?

 

One person you didn't mention is your son. What does he think about the troop? If he's having fun and has friends it might be hard to get him to leave. I'm not sure how old he is but if he's starting to think about leadership maybe he would like more say in what's going on?

 

Another issue is whether or not there is a troop nearby that is more boy led but still has a reasonable program.

[Tatung42]

My son is having a great time.  He has some friends in the troop, and he likes all the outings (kayaking, horseback riding, rock climbing, cope, to name a few).  He just finished his first year.

 

The SM talking for most of the meeting is so normal that the scouts really just don't know any different.

 

The troop has patrols, but I'm not really clear what they do.  Occasionally at troop meetings, they spend a few minutes for patrol meetings where they do stuff like menu planning.  However on outings, the troop cooks for everyone, and I believe the adult outing leader plans the menu and buys the food.  For things like camporee, the SM combines the scouts going into temporary patrols so that each patrol has enough scouts.
 

We looked at other troops in the district last year, but the other troops were pretty unimpressive.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Tatung42

[qwazse]

Ruts run deep.

The other thing I did was arrange backpacking trips or weekends to the in-lawsd with my kids and their buddies. The boys got a lot of responsibility.

Pretty soon others in the troop wanted to hike someplace cool, and I made it clear that we would have to condition for it (less announcement time, more challenges) and the trails could only take ten people at a time max (serious advance commitment, must divide the troop into working sub-units).

[Eagle94-A1]

My thoughts

 

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!

 

2) What does your son think; what does he want to do?  His scouting career, HE needs to make the decision.

 

3) If the SM and other leaders are as entrenched as they are, if their attitude is "my way or the highway," then no matter what you or others say, no matter what amount of training they receive, no matter what amount of coaching they get from others. it will go in one ear and out the other. You and the others WILL get frustrated, angry, and want to quit.  Find another venue to support your son if he decides to remain. Trust me. I've dealt with an SM like that for several years now. Won't listen to his Scouts, his trainers, his UC, NO ONE.  But unlike your son's troop, instead of continuing to grow, that troop is loosing Scouts.

 

I'm going to relate my oldest son's story on how he chose a troop. The troop that the pack's CO charters is the challenging one above. After one camp out with him, he commented "The adults do everything," and decided to look elsewhere. In the next campsite was a much smaller troop, but IMHO the best troop in the district. They  were an established troop using the patrol method and it showed. When we visted them on a meeting night, the youth for the most part were running the show. I say for the most part because they did have a "guest speaker,"  to go over in detail the section of the AT the older Scouts were doing in a month. The Speaker was a college aged ASM who did the section with the troop previously.  The ones that were not going on the AT were working under one of the older Scouts who was not doing the AT.

 

Long story short WELL RUN, YOUTH LED AND ORGANIZED TROOP. They did have some advantages in that there was a cadre of older Scouts, as well as ASMs who grew up in the troop still involved and passing on their knowledge.

 

Unfortunately the troop went Trail's Life. Visited another troop and it was chaos and anarchy. SPL had a family emergency last minute, ASPL was on vacation and an unprepared PL took over the meeting and ad libbed it. If I was a brand new, off the street parent who didn't know better, there would be no way in Hades I would let my son go to the troop. But knowing how the patrol method can be "organized chaos," seeing how the PL took over as best as he could, seeing how the troop adapted to the situation, well I knew a troop that had potential. He went there, and has been happy overall since.

 

Now is that troop perfect, heck no. You should read some of my posts about the issues we are having, essentially growing too fast ( troop tripled in size in a 2 year period), and getting adults to let go. It messy, it's chaotic. BUT IT WORKS! The Scout learn a lot more out of it.

 

My son was elected PL as a 10 year old new Scout, SPL as an 11 year old Tenderfoot, and is currently a TG as a 12 year old First Class Scout. has it been pretty or easy for him, not at all. he took a break form leadership between being SPL and TG, and plans on taking another when his tour as TG is over at the end of the month, because IT IS WORK. But he has learned so much. And considering he is helping to rebuild a troop, he's done more in leadership than I ever did, because I had older Scouts to mentor and advise me. He's stuck with doing it on his own and asking this old fogey.

 

So just because a troop is chaotic, doesn't mean it's a bad one, IF they are trying to do the right thing: USE THE PATROL METHOD!

[Krampus]

Geesh, this sounds like a Cub Scout Pack.