So what do you do when SM says a BOR isn't needed for Palm?

[5yearscouter]

Trying to make a long story short,

what do you do when the SM tells a scout that a BOR is NOT needed for an Eagle Palm, and there isn't an advancement sheet Nor the Eagle Palm application because the BOR members would have signed those docs

 

 

It comes out at the next court of honor a month+ later when SM is mad that the scout didn't get his palm since the advancement chair didn't know to even go and buy the Palm.

 

Do you do the BOR as soon as you get an Eagle Palm application from the scout?  Do you date it for the date the BOR was actually done, or the date it should have been done? Because the BOR dated it for the day it was actually done and now the scout's MOM is complaining that he'll now miss out on getting his 9th eagle palm by 5 weeks....

Edited April 4, 2016 by 5yearscouter

[qwazse]

An Eagle palm application?

Where is that in the requirements?

Did the scout ask for a BoR?

Have the BoR ASAP after the scout requests it. How is this complicated?

It's not mom's business. Ask the Eagle Scout what he thinks is fair.

Edited April 4, 2016 by qwazse

[Stosh]

Mom's worried that the boy isn't going to get his 9th palm? 

 

Really?

[Krampus]

After 8 palms mom's intervention should have stopped looooong ago.

[desertrat77]

That ninth palm will make a big difference on those college applications...

[Sentinel947]

Scoutmaster screwed up. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/eaglepalm.aspx

Easy fix though. 

 

 

That ninth palm will make a big difference on those college applications...

UGGGGHHHH!!!!

[desertrat77]

When I "achieved" my two Eagle palms, no BOR was required.   Stay active/positive in the troop, earn the MBs (if you didn't have "leftovers" pre-Eagle), have a chat with the SM, and file the paperwork.   It was a very casual process.   Palms aren't rank, I'm still not sure what the big deal is.

[Sentinel947]

When I "achieved" my two Eagle palms, no BOR was required.   Stay active/positive in the troop, earn the MBs (if you didn't have "leftovers" pre-Eagle), have a chat with the SM, and file the paperwork.   It was a very casual process.   Palms aren't rank, I'm still not sure what the big deal is.

I didn't earn any palms. I did then, and still do, feel like they are make work. I guess some scouts who earn Eagle early might still be motivated by advancement, but most Eagles earn the award 16+. Advancement isn't as big a motivation as fun and leadership challenge. Not all good things in life are for a grade, or have a award at the end. 

[desertrat77]

I didn't earn any palms. I did then, and still do, feel like they are make work. I guess some scouts who earn Eagle early might still be motivated by advancement, but most Eagles earn the award 16+. Advancement isn't as big a motivation as fun and leadership challenge. Not all good things in life are for a grade, or have a award at the end. 

Very true.  Indeed, the palms are make-work.   I don't recall purposely setting out to earn them.   I stayed active in the troop, and the excess MBs just happened thru a combo of leftovers and earning a few at camp just because they seemed fun or interesting.  

[CalicoPenn]

My position is we never "punish" a Scout for the actions or inactions of the Adults.  The SM told this Scout he didn't need a BOR.  Presumably, an Eagle Scout would have read his handbook and have known that he would need a BOR, but at the same time, it would not be unreasonable to believe that the Scoutmaster would be up on the latest advancement requirements and was passing on new requirements that hadn't hit the handbook yet.

 

Frankly, the date of the BOR just isn't that critical for palms - BOR dates are important prior to earning Eagle Scout rank but afterwards, they're just dates on a paper.  I would give the Scout the benefit of the doubt over the Scoutmaster's mistake and date the BOR for 5 weeks prior.

[qwazse]

Very true.  Indeed, the palms are make-work.   I don't recall purposely setting out to earn them.   I stayed active in the troop, and the excess MBs just happened thru a combo of leftovers and earning a few at camp just because they seemed fun or interesting.  

Palms are fun.

When I was MC, BoR's for palms were the most fun, IMHO, because the boys were more knowledgeable about scouting and world events and less stressed.

 

Back to the application http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/58-709_WB.pdf, which -- since it is not spelled out in the requirements -- is not what the scout needs to complete to have a BoR (but sure is convenient if he does): it's a lot like an MB application, the scout fills in some blanks, SM others, Comittee others, and council others. So what would I do with this?

 

1. Have the scout and SM fill out the paperwork, ask the SM to back-date his signature to the point at which he felt the requirements were fulfilled.
2. Have the board of review ASAP. Have fun with it! Ask the scout where he think that communication failed. Ask what he thinks you could do better next time. Ask how important it is for him to go for that 9th palm.
3. The date of the BoR is the date of the BoR. Fill it in. Add a note that that the BoR had been delayed for two months and you consider the boy having passed as of the target date. (What else is that white space for?)
4. If the scout is doing a great job and is indeed halfway to his next palm, schedule another BoR for three months after the date of the SM's signature. Get the application filled out.
5. On it the scout can say he passed the board as of the intended date. By way of disclosure, he can put a footnote "see previous application regrading Troop __ committee's approval date."

 

If council gives you push-back, say "Your problem, not ours. The boy's been providing continuous service full of scout spirit for the past six months. We think he met the intent of the requirements. You can expect another app three months hence on our stated schedule. Give national a call if you still think it's a problem."

[Krampus]

Very true.  Indeed, the palms are make-work.   I don't recall purposely setting out to earn them.   I stayed active in the troop, and the excess MBs just happened thru a combo of leftovers and earning a few at camp just because they seemed fun or interesting.  

Given he's looking to get nine (9) palms that's a minimum age of 15 years, 10 months when he got his Eagle.

 

 

My position is we never "punish" a Scout for the actions or inactions of the Adults.  The SM told this Scout he didn't need a BOR.  Presumably, an Eagle Scout would have read his handbook and have known that he would need a BOR, but at the same time, it would not be unreasonable to believe that the Scoutmaster would be up on the latest advancement requirements and was passing on new requirements that hadn't hit the handbook yet.

 

Well, no one can add or subtract requirements either so we can't just punt the BOR either. 

 

 

Trying to make a long story short,

what do you do when the SM tells a scout that a BOR is NOT needed for an Eagle Palm, and there isn't an advancement sheet Nor the Eagle Palm application because the BOR members would have signed those docs

 

 

It comes out at the next court of honor a month+ later when SM is mad that the scout didn't get his palm since the advancement chair didn't know to even go and buy the Palm.

 

Do you do the BOR as soon as you get an Eagle Palm application from the scout?  Do you date it for the date the BOR was actually done, or the date it should have been done? Because the BOR dated it for the day it was actually done and now the scout's MOM is complaining that he'll now miss out on getting his 9th eagle palm by 5 weeks....

 

The Scout owns his own advancement process. If he's old enough to know better then missing the BOR is his responsibility.

 

The SM co-owns this process. If he cannot read the requirements then he owes the Scout an apology for giving him bad information. The SM also owns the process of communicating with the advancement chair who has/has not passed an SMC.

 

If the Scout is 18 then, IMHO, the SM needs to eat crow in front of the Scout, accept responsibility himself and take his lumps. He needs to apologize to the advancement chair for not notifying him he was sending him a Scout for a BOR...or at very least, notifying him he just completed an SMC for a palm candidate. The Scout can go on in life knowing he had 8 palms, which is essentially meaningless to most, and highly suspect to those of us who run Scout units.

 

If the Scout is NOT 18, hold the BOR and award the palm, then let him go earn #10.   

[fred johnson]

My position is we never "punish" a Scout for the actions or inactions of the Adults.  The SM told this Scout he didn't need a BOR.  Presumably, an Eagle Scout would have read his handbook and have known that he would need a BOR, but at the same time, it would not be unreasonable to believe that the Scoutmaster would be up on the latest advancement requirements and was passing on new requirements that hadn't hit the handbook yet.

 

Frankly, the date of the BOR just isn't that critical for palms - BOR dates are important prior to earning Eagle Scout rank but afterwards, they're just dates on a paper.  I would give the Scout the benefit of the doubt over the Scoutmaster's mistake and date the BOR for 5 weeks prior.

 

Well said.

[Krampus]

Five years from now that same Scout will miss filing his income tax because 1) he was never held accountable, and 2) April 15th is "just a date on paper".

 

You would *think* having done the palm BOR at least SEVEN times previously he'd know what the process was. Meh.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Krampus

[5yearscouter]

SM held 1/11/15 for scout's first bronze palm. 

court of honor end of February when advancement chair found out.

first of march new advancement chair takes over

sends scout info that a bor is required and we'd like to schedule it asap

asks for him to complete eagle palm application and bring it the next week.

March 7 scout shows, no book (can't hold him back on bor if no book and told him so)

ask if he completed the eagle palm application, answers no

suggests they sit down and write out the palm application so the BOR would know which 5 merit badges were being used for the palm.

Scout decides to take it home and come back prepared the next week.

Scout comes back March 28 with palm application and date of BOR already filled in for 1/11/15

 

BOR discusses the issue, and looks at troop advancement records

and holds the palm BOR and dates it for the actual date 3/28

they discussed the issue with the scout and he was ok with it,

that they didn't feel it was honest to date it for the incorrect date.

 

Mom is furious, that scout will age out 5 weeks before he could get his 10th palm. The board feels like adjusting the date would be wrong also cause scout himself delayed BOR by 3 of the 5 weeks

 

The only way scout would have gotten that 10th palm is if SM conferences were held exactly 3 months after each prior palm bor, regardless of day of the week or if it's a troop elections or court of honor when SM conferences aren't usually done and neither are bor.  And that's if we could get 3 adults to sit the BOR on that same date and if the scout doesn't get sick and miss a day.  That would be with absolutely perfect dates.  It is likely that with adjustments for those things the scout could still get 3 bronze, 3 gold and 3 silver.  But he is still back here on palm #1