Uniforms and Scout Spirit

[Eagle94-A1]

They are basically looking at ways to hold boys up until the feel a scout is "ready" to advance, but no one can explain what "ready" means as it is "different for each boy". The life bor is the "last chance" to hold a boy back. The current cc has it in his head that I'd we "let" a scout eagle too soon we will never see him again.

 

 

 

Tells me more about the troop than anything. If folks are getting Eagle and leaving, there's a problem with program. I've been fortunate, most of the troops I've been with had folks staying on after getting Eagle as best as they could. College. military service, jobs, etc can put a damper on things. But ifyou have an active program, they will stay.

[NJCubScouter]

My attitude is, what's so difficult about wearing the uniform? I'm not talking about what the specific consequences of wearing or not wearing the uniform should or should not be, but I think a troop should support the wearing of the uniform in every way that is not prohibited by BSA policy. I understand the frustration of seeing kids show up without a uniform when I know that in the vast majority of cases, with about 5 minutes of advance planning, they could have stopped at home after their athletic practice or play rehearsal or marching band or whatever it is, and put on their uniform - or brought their uniform to school and put in their locker, and put it on in the rest room stall at the meeting. I have done the adult equivalent myself on many occasions. I have my full uniform in my car right now, for just such an eventuality. And trust me, with everything I have to do, I am not necessarily any more organized than any of the kids. (Well, a few I suppose - some of the kids are astoundingly disorganized, but even most of those can manage to show up in uniform most of the time.)

 

And I am not talking about kids who don't own a uniform. Every Scout in my troop owns a uniform. In a few cases someone other than their parents paid for it because the parents couldn't afford it, or it came out of the uniform closet, and the patches may not be exactly right, but it's a uniform. We are not sticklers for patch placement or correctness, though it is certainly a goal. We are more interested in each Scout wearing their uniform shirt, pants, neckerchief, hat and belt.

 

One thing in the original post I don't get, and that is someone having a problem with sweatshirts being worn over the uniform. I don't see "A Scout is Cold" in the Scout Law. Wearing an outergarment does not mean you are not in uniform. I wear a sweatshirt sometimes but I prefer to wear it under my short-sleeved uniform shirt. That's my personal choice, however. It is not mandatory.

Edited March 31, 2016 by NJCubScouter

[Stosh]

Stosh,

 

I'm with you on living the Scout Oath and the Scout Law - now please explain what that means objectively - how do you measure it - especially if it's self-reporting.  I think we could all agree that cheating on a test isn't living up to the Scout Oath or Scout Law but if the Scout is never caught at it, and never self-reports it - how are you going to determine that he's not lived up to the Scout Oath and the Scout Law?  I certainly don't disagree with this definition at all but I stand by my statement that the BSA never really defines it objectively - even this definition is nebulous. 

 

Do we really need a requirement that says "Demonstrate Scout Spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law" when we have a certain percentage of adults that will grab ahold of that nebulous Scout Spirit concept and run in wild directions with it?  Why not a simple and clean "Discuss how you have lived the Scout Oath and Scout Law"?

 

Here's the rub @@CalicoPenn If our adults have no way to explain what it means objectively, how is any boy going to get past the requirement?:

 

Scout:

Explain what Scout spirit is. Describe some ways you have shown Scout spirit by

practicing the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan.

 

Where is the "hold him back because he's not old enough" part of that?  Where's the "his uniform shirt is never tucked in." part of that?  This is where the Advancement Police start their extravagant justification process that leads to abuse of the whole Scout Spirit issue.  His shirt is not tucked in = Disobedient!  Missed 25% of the activities = "Disloyal"!  Didn't meet adult expectations on doing the POR the way they wanted it done = "Untrustworthy"!

 

Is this negative tonality of adult judgments the lessons we really want to be teaching our boys?

 

The boy was there, he had his full uniform on, it wasn't tucked it, but in 99% of the cases of boys out there he was miles ahead of everyone else!  That should not be a negative ding on the boy,

 

Find something good and use that to promote and encourage Scout Spirit, not some nit-picking issue that bullies and/or demeans an otherwise fairly good effort on the part of the boy. 

 

One of the main reasons why I truly believe I don't have the kinds of behavioral problems from my boys that are commonly expressed on this forum is because I don't dish out cr@p.  What I dish out is what I get back.    All my adult boys that visit with me and or come up to me on the street always refer to me as Mr. Stosh even though they have all been invited to call me by my first name now that they are adults.  They never do and so I still call them by their names, "Mr. Smith", "Mr. Jones", etc.    That kind of mutual respect did not grow out of nit-picking advancements and bullying them into some adult driven Scout Spirit compliance.  Their Scout Spirit is evident in their lives every time I see them on the street or in a store or at a campsite down the road a bit with their wife and kids. 

[MattR]

I suppose a scout should be treated the same way about his uniform as about his actions. I want scouts to act and look like scouts. I also realize they'll slip and make mistakes. My scouts are all a work in progress so for that reason I don't worry about uniforms being perfect. On the other hand, a scout that refuses to wear a uniform likely does not act much like a scout (unless he can't afford it, but that's a problem I'll solve). For this reason I will not just let them do as they want regarding their uniform just as I won't let them act in an unscout like manner. The challenge is the right amount of consistent, gentle pressure.

 

Our gentle pressure consists of: We require green pants but not official scout pants. I will pull aside a scout that consistently does not wear a uniform and ask him why. I will comment to scouts if their patches are completely out of date - just to let him know I see it. We do require a scout to wear his uniform at a SMC for rank, or bor. When we take a picture of the troop we ask all scouts that are not wearing a full uniform to not stand in front. During an indoor flag ceremony we ask all scouts to remove their jackets as well as non-scout hats, and they can put them back on afterward. We strongly suggest scouts wear their scout shirts when we travel or do service projects so people know scouts is still around. We also tell everyone if they can't afford a uniform we'll find them one. In other words, the scouts know they should wear a uniform, they can get a uniform, and we understand when they slip. Most importantly, when a scout that has had problems with his uniform suddenly shows up with everything right, I'll complement him on how sharp he looks, just as I try to complement every scout that does a better job helping out.

[andysmom]

To clarify a couple things.

The majority of our committee members do not attend troop meetings, so they have no idea which scouts are there. We have a 17 year old Eagle Scout who does attend most meetings, he isn't there now because he is on the robotics team and they are preparing for the world championships which they qualified for last week. Our brand new 15 year old Eagle Scout (omg) plans to run for SPL for next year, he will be around. Most of our Eagles have their BOR after their 18th birthday or just before they leave for college, so of course we don't see them anymore.

 

Our boys are not aware (for the most part) of the tensions between the adults. SM and Cc don't speak when cc shows up for a meeting or event. Some parents know because their boys have been in the middle of things and have thanked us ( SM and myself) for standing up for their sons. I try to run interference between cc and SM, because SM is wanting to walk. He enjoys working with the boys but doesn't feel supported by the committee.

 

The troop is growing again, troop went from 9 to 65 and back down to 18 with the last SM, we crossed over 6 and recruited a couple who moved into the area and are up to 30 scouts now. We had 7 Eagle Scouts last year and 5 the year before. Our boys plan the program, they are stepping up in their POR (most of them).

 

The problem is with some members of the committee who want the program run the way it was in the 60s and 70s when they were scouts. They have some sort of invisible standards that they want to hold the scouts to, especially Eagle Scouts. They want our Eagle Scouts to be the best, as in our Eagles are better than anyone else's, not that are Eagles are the best they can be.

 

Our boys wear their uniform most of the time, we have 1 PL who has been lax lately. The things they are bringing up now are silly and are just ways to try to insert their "authority" over the boys. We rarely have discipline issues. Sure, we have some older scouts who don't camp as often as we would like but they have a lot going on from advanced classes, sports, jobs etc. it is not unusual and certainly not anything that deserves more than a conversation. I shot down their theory about our new life scouts being too young, so now they are looking for some other reason to hold them back.

Edited March 31, 2016 by andysmom

[Eagledad]

One of the main reasons why I truly believe I don't have the kinds of behavioral problems from my boys that are commonly expressed on this forum is because I don't dish out cr@p.  What I dish out is what I get back.    All my adult boys that visit with me and or come up to me on the street always refer to me as Mr. Stosh even though they have all been invited to call me by my first name now that they are adults.  They never do and so I still call them by their names, "Mr. Smith", "Mr. Jones", etc.    That kind of mutual respect did not grow out of nit-picking advancements and bullying them into some adult driven Scout Spirit compliance.  Their Scout Spirit is evident in their lives every time I see them on the street or in a store or at a campsite down the road a bit with their wife and kids. 

Wow! 

 

Moving on, scout spirit is not typically a problem between the adults and scouts because as Calico pointed out, most scouts will not stand up to adults. These discussions come up because of disagreements between adults. Stosh, you haven't had any problems because you don't even allow other adults to disagree with you in your small troops.

 

And it's not just stosh, the measurement of Scout Spirit in "every unit" is defined by the adults, typically the Scoutmaster. Which is why objective definitions change from unit to unit. The better troops set that standard on the adults equally to the scouts. You don't usually hear of many Scout Spirit issues in those units because everyone pretty much knows the definition of good behavior. It's the units where Scout Spirit expectation isn't enforced equally among the adults and scouts that problems arise. As I said, between the adults.

 

That is not to say that the OP isn't right here, but the real issue is the unfairness of the CC who appears to have a different definition of Scout Spirit, at least with the OP. I think Eagle94 said it best, this issue is just a sign of deeper problems for this unit. Is the CC supposed to question the Scoutmaster's call on Scout Spirit? Is he really supposed to hold him back in this situation? 

 

And Stosh, Calico or anybody else who thinks the problem goes away just by letting the scout define Scout Spirit, lets see how you respond to a scout who believes that hostel threats toward other scouts are acceptable within Scout Spirit. Not an easy situation but our troop dealt with it by getting the parents involved. But what of a scout who disagrees with Stosh of Calico on the minimum expectation of scout spirit? You would be surprised on what folks consider bullying. Adults usually get their way with disagreement between adults and scouts.

 

I agree with stosh that scouts must be allowed to learn and growth by their own actions in the program. But somebody has to set the standard of expectations and even draw the line on a minimum expectation. That is supposed to be the SM. Sadly sometimes Scoutmasters are terrible examples and problems occur. But anyone who believes that the adults aren't part of the process of setting the expectation of scout spirit aren't understanding human behavior or the key component of role modeling in the scouting program. Whether you like it or not, scouts imitate the adults, even from 300 ft away. You don't believe it, start watching other units at summer camp next year. 

 

In this case, the CC is out of line in several ways. Not only is he not supposed to really be the passing judge of Scout Spirit, the CC isn't supposed to regulate the speed at which a scout advances. As Eagle94 said, there are other problems here.

 

Barry

[desertrat77]

A couple of larger, more generalized dynamics to consider.

 

We have a generation or two of Americans that refuse to wear "big boy/big girl" clothes, even at the appropriate times.   People don PJs to the store and school.   Flip flops and tee shirts in formal situations.   Small wonder the scouts don't see the big deal.  Imprinting.

 

The BSA uniform is expensive and unsightly.   National:  field a better uniform and scouts will wear it without complaint.  

 

(I'm not holding my breath on the latter.)

 

In the interim, the key is for adults and senior scouts to set the example.

[Krampus]

Our boys are not aware (for the most part) of the tensions between the adults. SM and Cc don't speak when cc shows up for a meeting or event. Some parents know because their boys have been in the middle of things and have thanked us ( SM and myself) for standing up for their sons. I try to run interference between cc and SM, because SM is wanting to walk. He enjoys working with the boys but doesn't feel supported by the committee.

My question to the CC would be why is he addressing the boys AT ALL???!!!

 

The SM manages the program side of the house. He's responsible for the program, leadership development and rank advancement (among other things).

 

The Advancement Chairman is the one who should be managing the BORs, training the parents how to take part in a BOR, etc.

 

The CC's and the TC's primary job, according to BSA's Troop Committee Guide is to "support the Scoutmaster in delivering quality troop programs, and handling troop administration." No where in the guide does it say that the CC is to meddle with the BSA program over the SM's objections. The CC's duties are:

• Organize the committee to see that all functions are delegated, coordinated, and completed.
• Maintain a close relationship with the chartered organization representative and the Scoutmaster.
• Interpret national and local policies to the troop.
• Prepare troop committee meeting agendas.
• Call, preside over, and promote attendance at monthly troop committee meetings and any special meetings that may be called.
• Ensure troop representation at monthly roundtables.
• Secure top-notch, trained individuals for camp leadership.
• Arrange for charter review and recharter annually.
• Plan the charter presentation.

If I were SM I'd invite the CC to either replace me or let me do my job.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Krampus

[Stosh]

A couple of larger, more generalized dynamics to consider.

 

We have a generation or two of Americans that refuse to wear "big boy/big girl" clothes, even at the appropriate times.   People don PJs to the store and school.   Flip flops and tee shirts in formal situations.   Small wonder the scouts don't see the big deal.  Imprinting.

 

The BSA uniform is expensive and unsightly.   National:  field a better uniform and scouts will wear it without complaint.  

 

(I'm not holding my breath on the latter.)

 

In the interim, the key is for adults and senior scouts to set the example.

 

When I was a kid growing up there was a certain amount of social decorum that went with the way people dress.  However, the dress code of today has taken on a whole different definition.  Sandals and snowbanks didn't mix with each other and never were part of the same sentence.  What was once called pajama bottoms today are Walmart pants.  Underwear was really UNDERware.

 

First impressions are still important, however, and they have a lasting effect for quite some time.  That is a lesson everyone has to learn on their own.  My boys are not "required" to wear a uniform nor wear it correctly, but if they wish to garner respect as a scout, one had better take the uniform into consideration.  It is also important among my boys that if the uniform is worn it is worn correctly.  Yes, I have seen boys in my troop during flags use the civilian salute of hand over heart because all they had was the uniform shirt.

 

Uniforms are optional, but so is any respect one might receive because of wearing one.  Eventually a boy wearing an Insane Clown Posse t-shirt will probably not be recognized, respected or even taken seriously as a scout by others.  If they learn that lesson from outside the troop, it is far more effective than the SM making a weekly issue out of it. 

[NJCubScouter]

Our gentle pressure consists of: We require green pants but not official scout pants.

We have had some parents ask if they can buy less expensive pants if they are the same shade of green. We tell them yes. Unfortunately this experience has taught us that some parents, and some Scouts, are evidently colorblind.

[NJCubScouter]

We have a generation or two of Americans that refuse to wear "big boy/big girl" clothes, even at the appropriate times.   People don PJs to the store and school.   Flip flops and tee shirts in formal situations.   Small wonder the scouts don't see the big deal.  Imprinting.

Last summer I had a client show up for a hearing in a federal courthouse in shorts and flip flops. I could not believe it. Fortunately the appearance was not in a courtroom, it was in a meeting room and present were two other attorneys, the client and myself. Needless to say the rest of us were not wearing shorts and flip flops. Nobody said anything about it, but given that the client was the one who was "on stage" at this meeting, how are you supposed to take someone seriously when their attire is so ridiculously inappropriate for the situation? Makes me wonder, if he wears shorts and flip flops into a federal courthouse, what does he wear to the beach?

 

And this guy is around 50 years old.

 

(And by the way, the shorts were not even "casual dress" shorts, they were cutoffs. The flip flops were not from a formalwear store either.)

Edited March 31, 2016 by NJCubScouter

[CalicoPenn]

Barry,

 

I'm not looking for the Scouts to define Scout Spirit either - I'm looking for the whole Scout Spirit requirement to go away and be replaced by a much simpler metric of "How have you lived the Scout Oath and Scout Law".  If a Scout is acting hostilely to other Scouts, I think the question "How is that following the Scout Oath and/or Scout Law" is a much better question to ask that "How is that showing Scout Spirit".  I think asking "How is that Friendly" or "How is that helping other people at all times" are far more powerful questions than asking about Scout Spirit.

 

It's not the Scouts not understanding what Scout Spirit means the worries me - it's the not an insignificant number of adults that we read about on this forum that use Scout Spirit as a cudgel to hold people back for ridiculous things like not wearing a neckerchief or not attending the last meeting that I worry about.

[Stosh]

CalicoPenn,

 

I often wonder whether it is the adult interpretations or the requirements themselves that worry me more.  I have a pretty good understanding the scope of the Scout Spirit issue.  It relates to the practical application of the scout Oath and Law.  The uniform, attendance, POR fulfillment, age appropriate to the rank, adult interpretations that somehow get leveraged into the discussion bother me more.  If one were to explicitly, or more explicitly, state it only relates to scout Oath and Law, then they can just leave it alone.  These requirements aren't supposed to be Federal Law where we have a Supreme Court to handle the interpretations, this is just some kid trying to do his best and get through the skills training to be able to enjoy the outdoors more.  Why do the adults have to step in a make it something lawyers need to deal with?

[andysmom]

 

It's not the Scouts not understanding what Scout Spirit means the worries me - it's the not an insignificant number of adults that we read about on this forum that use Scout Spirit as a cudgel to hold people back for ridiculous things like not wearing a neckerchief or not attending the last meeting that I worry about.

 

Exactly my problem.

 

In boards of review, I don't usually ask questions about how they live the oath and law.  I see these boys at troop meetings, at school events and even in the grocery stores.  I see what they post on facebook and twitter, I know their parents and their teachers. If asked anyone can make themselves look good and will say what they think you want to hear.  I am more interested in watching our scouts when no one knows they are being watched, when they are on a school field trip or at the park with their little sister for example.  It is one of the benefits of being a Mom of a scout aged boy.  I know how they speak to me and I see how they interact with other adults, I also pay attention to how they say the pledge of allegiance, if they help the troop treasurer carry in his stuff to a troop meeting, how they are on service projects and how they behave with the new crossovers.  I don't think scout spirit is a particularly difficult thing to understand.

Edited March 31, 2016 by andysmom

[TAHAWK]

It will be forty-seven years June 1st, and in all that time, as Stosh has pointed out, "Scout Spirit" has been clearly defined as living by Scouting's values as set out in the Oath, Law, Slogan, and Motto.  Now we have Google, so one not even own and read the Handbook.

 

B.S.A. says on its 2016 website:

 

"4.2.3.2 Demonstrate Scout Spirit

The ideals of the Boy Scouts of America are spelled out in the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan. Members incorporating these ideals into their daily lives at home, at school, in their religious life, and in their neighborhoods, for example, are said to have Scout spirit. In evaluating whether a member has fulfilled this requirement, it may be best to begin by asking him to explain what Scout spirit and living the Scout Oath and Scout Law mean to him. Young people know when they are being kind or helpful, or a good friend to others. They know when they are cheerful, or trustworthy, or reverent. All of us, young and old, know how we act when no one else is around.

'Scout spirit' refers to ideals and values; it is not the same as 'school spirit.'"

 

 

And there is no "uniform."  Instead there is only BSA-branded clothing, with dozens of combinations across a wide price-range.   A uniform would be - duhh! - uniform.