The PLC Has Decided: Mixed Aged Patrols in May

[Eagle94-A1]

Just to blow your mind a little: why not?

 

Say the PL has a busted gamb and can't complete swimming reqs until a couple months. He can still observe and cheer on his mates at a properly supervised aquatics area, then put his pen to their books while they are drying off. Say he's still nervous about land navigation, but lines up a hike with a buddy who says he's ready as navigator and an instructor as backup and he tags along. After his buddy identifies the ideal logs on this side of the ravine to trim and cross to the other side, why shouldn't he sign off?

 

Make the rules simple: PL's can sign off on ST2F rank advancement, period. He doesn't have to be first to rank up to lead his boys in ranking up!

 

That' something from my troop growing up. Rationale behind it was the badge represents what you have mastered, so you should be able to teach it. Hence the Up to your rank. I know that back in the day, and even today when helping out, it's easier to pick who has the rank or merit badge that the skill covvers to teach it, than looking over advancement records. Although in one case, there was the Scout or Tenderfoot who was teaching intro to backpacking

 

"PL's can sign off on ST2F rank advancement, period."

is that written someplace?  I have been wondering what the ultimate written rule is on that topic.... not troop traditions, but the bottom line rule...

if PL signing off up to 1st class....

then who has the authority to sign off on requirements for star, life, eagle?

 

If I remember the G2A correctly, officially it is the decision of the SM on who gets to sign off on rank. Again my troop growing up, the SM allowed PLs and Leadership Corps members to sign off the lower ranks. Again in my troop, adults signed off on S-L-E.  Regarding the MB requirements, it was the individual MBCs who signed on the line. SM signed off on the leadership, time in grade, etc. usually done in the SMC.

 

Public speaking  and teaching require speech with slow, deliberate and audible characteristics.  Pauses for emphasis, gestures, etc. are all things I teach my boys.  While there is very little OA theatrics involved, the boys do quite well with the MC of a COH.  The reading parts are usually a bit up-tempo and often slurred a bit with the speed, but as the boys get older and more comfortable, that gets better.

 

I find my boys tend to "do their own thing" when it comes to COH's and other times when they need to "get up front and talk". 

 

At a COH one of the patrols (designated before the COH starts, and goes up front, welcomes everyone, etc. then distributes the awards for this patrol member.  He then hands off the duties to the next PL who does the same and hands off to the next PL.  The last PL does his thing and then thanks everyone for coming and invites them to stay for refreshments.

 

We did it a little differently. PLs did specific parts, i.e. Sammy Secondclass, PL of the Ravens would give out Tenderfoot, Simon Secondclass, PL of the Hawks, would give out Second Class.  Freddy Firstclass, Eagle PL, would give out  First Class. etc.

 

On a tangent, I am hoping, stress HOPING, one award has been approved by national and the paperwork is back. Would love to have that handed out at the COH. Don't know if the Scout who started the incident should give the award, or me, victim #2, should give it to him.

[Stosh]

@@Eagle94-A1,

 

  The reason the PL's do the COH the way we do it is because otherwise there would be a COH for each patrol.  We do everything around the Patrol Method idea and reinforce it every chance we can figure out  how to. 

 

The first PL does a general welcome, housekeeping stuff and then does HIS patrol ceremony.  Passes off the baton to the next PL

 

The second PL does his patrol ceremony and passes off to the next guy.

 

Last PL does his patrol ceremony and then wraps things up.

 

If any PL is due an award or rank advancement, it is done during their patrol ceremony.  The PL steps out of his role as PL and his APL does the honors of awarding his PL his award/rank.  Then back to being a PL.

 

This process emphasizes the patrol method and the fact that the PL is the highest ranking officer in the troop.  No one usually emcee's the whole ceremony,   There have been a few over the years to fulfill the Communicator MB, but they just do the welcome and then introduce each patrol and then the wrap up and refreshments.  It's pretty lame when they do it, but they do get credit for it.  It works better when the PL's do their own thing without the need of an emcee.  For a brief time when we had 4 patrols, the SPL did the emcee part.   Again, it was more of a distraction to the "normal" patrol oriented process.

[qwazse]

.... If I remember the G2A correctly, officially it is the decision of the SM on who gets to sign off on rank. Again my troop growing up, the SM allowed PLs and Leadership Corps members to sign off the lower ranks. Again in my troop, adults signed off on S-L-E.  Regarding the MB requirements, it was the individual MBCs who signed on the line. SM signed off on the leadership, time in grade, etc. usually done in the SMC. ...

The SM is the bottom line. And we've gone back and forth between First-class-and-up being permitted (after being briefed on how to test and sign off), to just PL's, SPL's, and instructors.

 

Star Life and Eagle used to be all MB's and marking time. So the boy just tracked what he did and asked for an SMC whenever. It's gotten a little complex with the hidden pedagogy and service-project MB's. There's a lot more to sign off nowadays. And, our boys usually get an adult to do it.

[Stosh]

I'd say signing off on the skill levels of the S-FC is more of a challenge than the S-E ranks.  Those top ranks are pretty cut and dry.  Count days, count MB's count service hours, tell them to go see SM.  What's the big deal about that?  PL's sign off on their member's advancement. 

 

If, at a SMC, something looks a bit suspicious, I will ask point blank what's up with that, did you really do what the requirement said.  The boys will generally be honest and say yes or no.   I have had the boys cross off their PL's signature and tell me they want a do-over on that requirement or they demonstrate to me that they know it and then we move on.  It's never a big deal.

 

By the way.  a board of review cannot retest the boy but a SM at a SMC can.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Stosh

[blw2]

@@Eagle94-A1,

 

  The reason the PL's do the COH the way we do it is because otherwise there would be a COH for each patrol.  We do everything around the Patrol Method idea and reinforce it every chance we can figure out  how to. 

 

The first PL does a general welcome, housekeeping stuff and then does HIS patrol ceremony.  Passes off the baton to the next PL

 

The second PL does his patrol ceremony and passes off to the next guy.

 

Last PL does his patrol ceremony and then wraps things up.

 

If any PL is due an award or rank advancement, it is done during their patrol ceremony.  The PL steps out of his role as PL and his APL does the honors of awarding his PL his award/rank.  Then back to being a PL.

 

This process emphasizes the patrol method and the fact that the PL is the highest ranking officer in the troop.  No one usually emcee's the whole ceremony,   There have been a few over the years to fulfill the Communicator MB, but they just do the welcome and then introduce each patrol and then the wrap up and refreshments.  It's pretty lame when they do it, but they do get credit for it.  It works better when the PL's do their own thing without the need of an emcee.  For a brief time when we had 4 patrols, the SPL did the emcee part.   Again, it was more of a distraction to the "normal" patrol oriented process.

gotta say I like the logic in that approach.

[Eagle94-A1]

Update from the weekend.

 

Friday was a mix of adult led/ learn from your mistakes. We have some folks going backpacking. First shakedown and it was an expereince for all, including me. Long story short, unless you asked for advice and help, you didn't get it. However the person to ask help from was me and the other adult, more so the other adult, becasue we were the ones with experience.  He did a class on collecting water and filtration. But again it was learning from your mistakes. 

 

One thing Iearned was don't use an S 'biner for your bear bag unless you got a Chevy Suburban to climb on

 

Saturday evening after the rest of the troop showed up got interesting. One leader refused to leave the NSP alone until "someone who has cooked on coals and a grill supervises them" showed up.n Thankfully their troop guide has done that, and I asked him to keep an eye on them to get the other leader away. IT WORKED! had some issues with KP, but overall OK.

 

Sunday however was horrible.

 

Long story short it took 3+ hours for the NSP and older Scout patrol to do KP. Why did it take so long? IMHO adult interference.

 

Older Scout patrol was finished with KP, when they saw that the adults had some left overs. We made a deal, they could have some if they wash the knife, spoon, and spatula "after the [NSP] is finished with KP so you don't have to start another batch of water." That was adult interference #1

 

Some of the new scouts were having challenges getting their gear packed before breakfast. One in particular was not finished in a timely manner that his dad, who is a leader in the troop, thought, and dad told him "AFTER BREAKFAST PACK YOU BAG AND TAKE DOWN YOUR TENT!" (caps in this case is shouting). This kid had KP duty, BUT dutifully followed dad/ ASM's instructions. I am going to assume that his KP buddy, who was in the same tent and same situation, heard ASM's instructions, and when he finished eating, went to take care of his gear and the tent.

 

Guess what didn't get done until until after the gear was packed, tent dried and packed, and water was cold.

 

Eventually it was realized by other adults that the KP wasn't getting done, so other adults get involved.It was not a good thing.

 

Lots of "scolding" especially by a new ASM just crossed over from Webelos, who has caused some issues with allof the patrols, but especially the older Scouts, who now despise him. Does the new ASM have some valid points, yes. BUT he's going about it as if they were Cub Scouts.

 

At some point later, I ask the older scouts what happened with KP. The comment was, " I was told to do it after the [NSP] so iwas waiting for them to finish, before doing it."  adult interference #2, giving them specific instructions and not letting htem think for themselves."

 

Adult Mistake #3 is something that occurred to me last nite/ early this morning. The Scouts know they are suppose to do KP immediately after a meal. But when any adult, but especially their dad, tell them to do something, they will forget everything else, not try to talk to the adult about what they are suppose to be doing, i.e. eating brakfast, doing KP, etc, but immediately do whatthe aduolt tells them. I honestly believe that If I hadn't asked if the Scout had breakfast yet, he would not have had any.

 

The youth in various patrols have commented on adult interference and contradictory instructions, and told some of use they only want 1 adult interacting with them, and it isn't the SM. It's going to be an interesting leader's meeting tonite, because some of the adults are not happy that the Scouts want us out of their hair.

 

Me personally I want to sit back and drink my coffee saying, "Ask your PL."

[TAHAWK]

Have the new SA take Orientation for New Scout Parents.

 

 

"Ask you PL"  

 

 

Here is another thing that can have an effect over time.  

 

"Leader" = Scout in leadership position

 

"Scouter" = commissioned (uniformed) adult

 

"Adult" = all adults who are not Scouters.

 

Helps in recognizing and remembering who is supposed to be leading.

 

 

[Krampus]

 

Me personally I want to sit back and drink my coffee saying, "Ask your PL."

 

Yup!

 

And if you don't have NSPs you don't have 10 clueless, new kids on one patrol trying to figure out KP.

 

Our PLs have a check list (think: pilot pre-flight manual they used to keep in their flight suit) on what gets done when. On Sunday AM the cooks cook, everyone else packs their gear. QMs inspect the tents with the PL before dropping them. Cooks tent is last. After breakfast, while the others do KP the cook packs his gear, then he and his tent-mate get their tent inspected, drop the tent and pack it. After KP the QM and PL check out the PL gear and it gets loaded. This takes place in a 2 hour period from wake up to ready to go.

 

What makes this work is that every Scout is involved, the older Scouts pitch in with the younger ones and the PLs stay on track vis-a-vis their check list. I shudder to think what that would look like if all the new Scouts were in one group.

[Sentinel947]

Yup, if you don't have a TG embedded with an NSP, it's not going to work out. It'd be better to integrate those boys if your Troop guides cannot or will not work with the NSP.

 

@@Eagle94-A1 what happened with the S biner? I want to know. 
 

[Krampus]

 

@@Eagle94-A1 what happened with the S biner? I want to know. 

 

 

Most climbers and outdoor enthusiasts will tell you the S biners are, well, PO S biners. 

 

For bear bags I recommend these. The are more expensive, but if you've ever picked up after your bear bag fell from 30ft up because your caribiner (or S biner) gave out you'll go to REI (or wherever) and spend the extra money. 

 

Had these for over 15 years...have not given out yet.

[Sentinel947]

Most climbers and outdoor enthusiasts will tell you the S biners are, well, PO S biners. 

 

For bear bags I recommend these. The are more expensive, but if you've ever picked up after your bear bag fell from 30ft up because your caribiner (or S biner) gave out you'll go to REI (or wherever) and spend the extra money. 

 

Had these for over 15 years...have not given out yet.

 

Been using S biners for a few years without trouble. Maybe I've been lucky. 

[Krampus]

Been using S biners for a few years without trouble. Maybe I've been lucky. 

 

It is is high quality you should get by. However, if you get wind storms or "play" on your line the S biners are not as secure as the locking carbiners. I like fault-tolerance and redundancy.

[Sentinel947]

It is is high quality you should get by. However, if you get wind storms or "play" on your line the S biners are not as secure as the locking carbiners. I like fault-tolerance and redundancy.

https://www.rei.com/product/771123/nite-ize-s-biner-size-4 

 

I wouldn't call it high quality. I can see what you're talking about. The carabiner proper should hold, it's the clip that would fail. Correct? 

[Stosh]

I use a pulley, works really good. 

[Krampus]

https://www.rei.com/product/771123/nite-ize-s-biner-size-4 

 

I wouldn't call it high quality. I can see what you're talking about. The carabiner proper should hold, it's the clip that would fail. Correct? 

 

Yup. Exactly. 

 

Get a high wind evening and that bag starts to sway? It may hold 98% of the time just fine. It's that 2% you want to guard against. Been hungry for a few days one time because gear failed (rope, caribiners, someone's knot skills) and took a few days to re-supply. As soon as I got home I went in to my climbing gear and got my good stuff out.

 

As God as my witness, I will never go hungry again.