The PLC Has Decided: Mixed Aged Patrols in May

[Eagle94-A1]

I admit, the troop has a long way to go still. In fact, one of my friends suggested looking for another troop already. But from where we've been, to last nite, IS a giant step in the right direction IMHO. (FYI, all caps will be emphasis and not shouting.)

 

We are going with the traditional, pre-1989, mixed aged patrol, so TGs are not going to be a POR. Game plan is to put more responsibility AND authority on the PLs.

 

As mentioned, the patrol method IS contrary to our society's expectations. Let's face it, we are treating 26 year old adults as children still, and unfortunatley they are acting like it. My thoughts are to give the youth high expectations, so that they will perform to the best of their abilities. THEY ARE CAPABLE OF DOIGN THE JOB, EVEN IF THEIR PARENTS THINK OTHERWISE! Let's face it, I learned my lesson last year when son was elected SPL as an 11 year old Tenderfoot! SM and an ASM want him to run again for SPL. He wants a break after being a TG, but will run for PL if the guy in his patrol who he wants to be PL wins election as SPL. "Somebody has to take care of them (the new patrol mates)."

 

As for training the PLC, We got a retired SNCO ( not the one who has caused problems) who is working on combining ILST and stuff he learned and taught at the SNCO acadamy. Basically more initiative games and emphasis on servant leadership added into the training, stuff they need.

 

The goal is to STRENGTHEN the PLC members and not weaken them. Give them the authority and responsibity, let them make their mistakes and use a guided apporach to work with the PL and SPL to improve. And by guided, not commands and directions, but asking questions and letitng htem think of solutions.

 

By 'screwing up" I mean not having a meeting plan, i.e. skills instruction, schedule for the camp out, getting information out in a timely manner, etc.

 

The adults are hoping that after having last election where folks voted for their best buddy instead of who is most capable of the job, the Older Scouts will be elected into PORs. Game plan is for the PCs to work with these older scouts, who in turn will work with the rest of the patrol.

 

Me personally, I think that once the Scouts realize the shackles are off, they will do VERY well.

 

Regarding the current troop TOE regarding an NSP ASM and venture ASM. My troop growing up didn't have ASMs assigned to patrols. Scouts did all the work. When I was PL of the NSP, , if I had a problem, I went to the ASPL or SPL (remember, this was pre-1989 and we were guinea pigs with NSPs.)  With those troops I've seen use NSPs, the ASM is OVERINVOLVED IMHO, and is treating the NSP more as a Webelos III than a Boy Scout Patrol. One reason I had such a hard time working with the NSP.

 

I know I've crossed the line on occasion with the NSP. One reason why I pushed for both responsibilty AND authority, it can with some of the issues I'm seeing.

[Stosh]

Now Stosh, I really doubt if everything was just peachy for generations before... and only just started going down hill when you reached adulthood....

Your parents almost certainly said the same thing, as did your grand parents, etc....

BUT I'll say this.... I get your point and I'll admit to having some of the same feelings.... even though I'm a half or whole generation down.... (guessing, I really don't remember how old you said you are....)

 

Eagle 94-A1

I was going to suggest, that in your advisory role as committee member, might be a good idea for you to remind your SM that ASM advisers mentioned in pint one, really do need to be reminded to not turn the patrols into WEBELOS dens....

just sayin...

 

Hmmm, my Grandfather grew up and fought in WW I.  My great uncle fought in that war as well.  Neither of them expressed the kinds of opportunity I had growing up.  My grandfather farmed most of his life and after the depression stopped farming, broke up his farm into lots and went into the construction business.

 

My dad grew up on the farm, fought in WW II and worked as a milkman before working his way up in the world. He often commented that the life I grew up in had far more freedoms and opportunities than he could have ever imagined as a kid.

 

Maybe it was just my small town upbringing, but my parents never knew where in the town of 700 people I was at any time.  Of course if I didn't make it home for supper, there weren't that many streets to look up and down on.  of course that was all before I turned 7 years old.

 

The next town I lived in was 5000 people, and by the time I was 10 years old I knew every nook and cranny of that town and spent more time away from home than I did at home.  I got my first gun (.22 caliber) when I was 12 years old and when I turned 16, my dad let me use the 12 gauge semi-auto for hunting.

 

I do remember going small game hunting into the country on my bike because I wasn't old enough to drive a car.  Parents had to drive us out into the woods to camp too if we didn't want to ride our bikes, no one was old enough to drive.

 

I worked my way through scouts.  My parents bought the uniforms, but everything else was my expense.  I raked, shoveled and cleaned to make sure I had the money to go.

 

Besides scouts, I was at the city pool which I had a season pass I paid for, or I was down by the river fishing.

 

So, tell me, what kid today has that kind of freedom?

 

The only thing we feared back then were the Communists and their bomb, but we all decide it was better to go quickly in the big blast than it was to starve to death in a bunker.  The Civil Defense sirens weren't put up for tornadoes, they were for the Bomb.

 

Today people fear everything including their shadow.  The world appears ugly and there's something dangerous just around the corner.  Kids can't be let out of an adult's sight for 2 seconds. 

 

I guess the only thing we feared more than the Bomb that we'd never see coming anyway would be the possibility that the candy store would someday close.

 

One of the biggest disappointments in life was when you turned 12 years old and the 10-cent Saturday matinees went up to 15-cents. 

 

Nope, I wouldn't trade my childhood for what poses as childhood today...ever.  Maybe not knowing what I had as a kid at that age is a good thing.  One doesn't miss what one doesn't know.

[Stosh]

One of the reasons the NSP's don't always work is because.

 

1) TG does not function in a supporting role for welfare of the entire NSP

2) SPL does not function in a supporting role to the NSP PL.

3) New kids are assumed to not be qualified to lead and can't decide on their own.

 

But if used properly NSP's work very well and I haven't had any problem with as many as 2 NSP's in the troop, Never had a troop big enough for 3 NSP's to have to work with.  Because they don't have older scouts in them necessarily, they tend to mature quicker than if they are "taken care of" by the older boys in a regular patrol.  Older boys can hold back budding leaders just as much as an adult.

 

I have had hot-shot NSP PL's come in and after a year slip very easily into troop POR's without any problems.  I have had boys as young as 12-13 running the annual popcorn sale without any big hassles.

 

If one expects and gives the opportunity to mature quickly, the boys do about 3/4ths of the time.  The other 1/4 are generally late bloomers who lack the confidence to step out of their comfort zone and take on a challenge.  Once they see their buddies doing it, they generally set it up their second year.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Stosh

[Eagle94-A1]

On paper I'm a committee member, but in performance I'm an ASM.  I'm working on that because I've been doing ASM work, since June 1st, except a brief spell when injured..

 

I would like to add a fourth reason why NSPs do not work: lack of cohesion, homogeneity, whatever you want to call it. What do I mean by that?  The NSP came from 5 different dens in 3 different packs over a 6 month period. Each pack and den did things differently, and began the transition to Boy Scouts differently. Different sets of expectations of Boy Scouts, different sets of readiness for Boy Scouts.

 

 

One reason why i think oldest's patrol did well as a NSP was because the process to transition started when they were Tigers. I showed them what Boy Scouts was about on a camp out that had Scouts. When they became Webelos, my replacement took over where I left off, and they began acting like a patrol. By the time Cross Over came, they were chomping at the bit to be Boy Scouts. One reason why guys were let down by the neighboring troop and came to the troop my son joined.

 

And the reason why I realized this: The Boy Scout told me this. 

[Sentinel947]

On paper I'm a committee member, but in performance I'm an ASM.  I'm working on that because I've been doing ASM work, since June 1st, except a brief spell when injured..

 

I would like to add a fourth reason why NSPs do not work: lack of cohesion, homogeneity, whatever you want to call it. What do I mean by that?  The NSP came from 5 different dens in 3 different packs over a 6 month period. Each pack and den did things differently, and began the transition to Boy Scouts differently. Different sets of expectations of Boy Scouts, different sets of readiness for Boy Scouts.

 

 

One reason why i think oldest's patrol did well as a NSP was because the process to transition started when they were Tigers. I showed them what Boy Scouts was about on a camp out that had Scouts. When they became Webelos, my replacement took over where I left off, and they began acting like a patrol. By the time Cross Over came, they were chomping at the bit to be Boy Scouts. One reason why guys were let down by the neighboring troop and came to the troop my son joined.

 

And the reason why I realized this: The Boy Scout told me this. 

Very valid point. But any patrol as it forms or adds new members is going to have a lack of cohesion. Think the stages of team development. Forming, Storming, Norming, Performing. 

 

Ultimately, NSP's are one way to structure patrols for new scouts, not the only way. You gotta do what works for your Scouts. 

 

Also, look back at post 177. You've got a lot of cheerleaders here (including myself) that think your troop is moving in an awesome direction. Enjoy the peaks, use them to sustain when in the discouraging moments. It's a long process. 

 

Sentinel947

[Stosh]

I can understand the rationale being promoted by a mixed bag of Webelos boys coming into the program.  But if they are all being oriented to the one Boy Scout program, I don't see what the mixed backgrounds would make.  

 

So, we have a mixed bag to start with and we try to organize into one cohesive group.  All the boys start from different backgrounds but when all is said and done, they should be on pretty equal footing.

 

Otherwise we have new boys coming in as a mixed bag and they are all sent out to different patrols and the slowly melt into the routine of that patrol.  They all end up on equal footing.  Same result

 

But what I'm hearing from how others are doing it at the end of the first year after the boys find their equal footing, THE ADULTS STEP IN AND BREAK UP THE PATROL AND PUT THE BOYS IN A HODGEPODGE OF OTHER PATROLS, thus starting them all over again from scratch with a new group.  

 

This then is put out there as evidence why New Scout Patrols don't work.  Well the reason is because they are set up to fail because people don't know how to use them correctly.  The same holds true for the Venture Patrols.   If done correctly they both work just fine for what they were designed to do.  No where in the BSA literature does it say to periodically disrupt the patrol progress with an apple-cart up-side-down, musical chairs approach to membership.  NO PATROL will survive under that tom-foolery.  Toss in a few events of ad hoc patrols and by the time the boy puts in his 7 years of scouting he will have been a part of at least 8-9 patrols.  That does not build the patrol method.

 

And keep it in mind that EVERY YEAR ALL THE PATROLS have to absorb new scouts that they have to work with, not just one patrol with a TG.  EVERY YEAR ALL PATROLS are affected with a change in group dynamics.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Stosh

[Eagle94-A1]

To my cheerleaders, heck everyone THANK YOU! This is a long, time consuming, and at times, very frustrating process. I need all the encouragement I can at times.

 

Regarding the mixed backgrounds, some new Scouts are capable of functioning without adult intervention because that is how they were trained.. Some won't do a thing without an adult telling them to do something. You can have however many scouts tell them, they will ignore them. Some are capable of doing things, some do not want to even try to do something. They want the adults to do it for them. Or if they are to be taught, they want adults to teach, not other Scouts. Especially not their peers in the den. Rather interesting that once the 12 year old Tenderfoot showed his knowledge, skills, abilitiies, and gear to teach introductory backpacking course, the older Scouts would actually listen to him abotu various things. Heck when the 12 year old Tenderfoot put on a backpacking cooking demo, and told them about the cook off the following week, the older Scouts paid attention to every last detail and it showed in their meal. The NSP that the Tenderfoot was in? Well they would not take any suggestions or ideas from him, to the point where he was so frustrated, he decided to do his own meal and compete. Long story short Tenderfoot was disqualifies as "professionals are not allowed " Older Scouts won as they had the next best meal, and the NSP, well, it took a lot of fortitude to sample their undercooked, disgusting meal. Only reason it was "edible", and the term is very loosely used, is because they used precooked chicken.

[Krampus]

To my cheerleaders, heck everyone THANK YOU! This is a long, time consuming, and at times, very frustrating process. I need all the encouragement I can at times.

 

 

Was at camporee recently. Most of the troops sent parents around with the patrols to the competitions...and not just the NSPs. We simply cut ours loose, told them we'd see them at dinner and let them have fun. They hit each event, the trading post, sat by the lake, came back to make their own lunch and even were back in camp at the designated time making dinner (late, but still, they're kids).

 

While they only won three or four ribbons, they all said they had a blast. I'd rather they experience life on their own than have two adults shouting at them how to build a fire the fastest when they should be learning for themselves.

 

You are doing the right thing. Enjoy the fruits of your labor and don't let anyone tell you you're doing it wrong.

[Eagle94-A1]

Was at camporee recently. Most of the troops sent parents around with the patrols to the competitions...and not just the NSPs.

 

You reminded me of two things, one funny and one not so much.  I was at one camporee where not only were the parents following their sons' patrol, but was even coaching from the sidelines.  Walking in front of the offending parents with my entire den, blocking the Scouts' view of their parents' miming helped. Firebuilding was a bit tougher as the SM used my den  as a means of relaying instructions to his Scouts. Yep the SM was talking loud enough where the patrol could hear what he was telling the Cub Scouts. And he was telling the Cubs how to build a fire. Thankfully the judges noted the interference, and the patrol lost points.

 

Now for the funny one. my council's camporee has a Cub Area, with events just for them. But there is a common area for Boy Scouts and Cubs, and the Cubs, especially Webelos, do have some scheduled time to see the Boy Scouts in action. It was a STEM camporee and one of the events was a DaVinci Bridge with no lashing or nails being used: only friction and  balance.   My Cubs, other leaders, and parents were following a patrol from the district to see them in action at the DaVinci Bridge event. Well, one of the bridge's joints started slipping and the ACM started to yell " It's..." when I slapped my hand over his mouth, and whispered 'SHHH they'll lose points if you talk." One of the judges at first was perturbed at the commotion, but when he saw the 'Blue Loops," me with my hand over the mouth, and realized it was a Cub leader causing the problem, he couldn't contain himself from laughing.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Eagle94-A1

[Stosh]

I used to judge events at camporees back in the day when my boys decided on going to them, but no one really liked the way I judged.  Most of the boys did reasonably well with the actual activity, whether it be fire building, first aid, knots, Kim's or whatever.  But I always waited for the patrol yell and looked for the patrol flag for the "tie-breaker" of the competition.  After a couple of camporees they always would do a good job on their ad hoc patrol yell, then wave a rag on a stick letting me know they really weren't a real patrol.  So I came up with a third item to break the tie.  "How many of your boys are in full-uniform?"      That really separated the men from the boys!  "How many of your boys have any uniform parts?"    Well, maybe a Scout hat here and there.  I would stop there, but the boys always inquired why I wasn't counting BSA t-shirts as part of the tie-breaker.  "Because that isn't part of the Scout Uniform."   Generally they would comment, "Well in our troop it is a Class-B uniform!" to which I would answer, "If this was a competition of just your troop, you'd probably win".   They got the point.  Was I judging on knot tying or fire building which every one did very well or was I judging on patrol method, uniform method and Scout Spirit?  Once I did a Klondike competition judging on first aid.  Boys pulled up with a sled full of first aid equipment all ready for the competition.  They did the patrol yell, waved a patrol flag and started unloading first aid stuff.  I called a halt to that and asked who the PL was.  One boy raised his hand and I told him to go over and it in the snowbank.  I said, "You just fell and broke your leg and arm.  If you talk or give instructions to your patrol, you will lose points."  I then asked the patrol who the APL was, they usually didn't have one, to which I would say "Bummer" your buddy just broke an arm and a leg, leave the sled alone and go help him."  It should come as no surprise that the scouts with the belts, neckers and a functional APL always seemed to have enough to win.    

 

Over the years the only ones that complained about my style of judging at camporees were the adults in the adult-led, troop-method units.  The boys generally liked my competitions because they never knew what to expect.  I did fire building once where they drew out of a hat the ignition method they could use.  1) Flint/steel, 2) 9-Volt battery/steel wool, 3) bow/spindle, 4) One match, 5) Magnesium, 6) magnifying glass (if sunny day) or 7) their choice.  Believe it or not, the winners usually were the 9-volt or the Magnesium boys, the magnifying glass came in at 3rd.  The ONE MATCH usually was a bust because it takes a lot of work to build a one-match fire lay. 

[Eagle94-A1]

@@Stosh

 

 

First aid story reminds me of one of the Scouts I signed off on First Aid MB. All he had left was show me his personal first aid kit. On the camping trip, I ask him about it, he goes to his tent to get the kit out of his backpack, and it's one of these hard plastic,patrol size kits. Now I thought he trying to pull one over on me, was using this kit because I asked him to show me the personal first aid kit on the camp out. I said no a personal one. and he tells me that is his personal one. I told the kit needed to fit in a pocket. His reply was "oh my survival kit's first aid stuff," goes back to his pack, pulls out the survival kit, which had the personal first aid kit stuff, and could fit inside a pocket. I'm good with it.

 

A few months later, a Scout cuts himself. Here comes the one I signed off with the exact same hard plastic patrol size first aid kit from his backpack to do first aid. Now he knows the patrols and troop carries these types of first aid kits, so I ask him why is he still carrying the large kit. "Be Prepared" was his response.

 

I see a future corpsman or medic.

[desertrat77]

Was at camporee recently. Most of the troops sent parents around with the patrols to the competitions...and not just the NSPs. We simply cut ours loose, told them we'd see them at dinner and let them have fun. They hit each event, the trading post, sat by the lake, came back to make their own lunch and even were back in camp at the designated time making dinner (late, but still, they're kids).

 

While they only won three or four ribbons, they all said they had a blast. I'd rather they experience life on their own than have two adults shouting at them how to build a fire the fastest when they should be learning for themselves.

 

You are doing the right thing. Enjoy the fruits of your labor and don't let anyone tell you you're doing it wrong.

 

I concur.   Send them forth, and even if the results are not perfect, they'll learn from it all and enjoy the day.  

 

Parents following a patrol around?   That's worse than "Webelos III"...sounds like Tiger Cub parenting.

[Eagle94-A1]

I concur.   Send them forth, and even if the results are not perfect, they'll learn from it all and enjoy the day.  

 

Or they may just surprise the heck out of you. First year oldest was competing at camporee, his patrol qualified for a blue ribbon, and only 20 points separated them from the "experienced" patrol

 

But I admit, I there are a few times where I just gotta watch the patrols in action. Last year, and hopefully this year too, I'll get the chance to watch them do tomahawk throwing again. Unfortunately they won't make the last year's mistake and let the Cub Scouts throw. I know there was some complaints in Oldest son's troop when they found out his younger brother nailed 4/5 tomahawks in the target. Would have been 5/5, but NOOOO middle son just had to try and do a Robin Hood, and split the handle on one of the hawks.

[Krampus]

I concur.   Send them forth, and even if the results are not perfect, they'll learn from it all and enjoy the day.  

 

Parents following a patrol around?   That's worse than "Webelos III"...sounds like Tiger Cub parenting.

Imagine the faces of the 14-17 year olds being followed (and coaced) by adylts.  Really felt for them.

[Sentinel947]

Imagine the faces of the 14-17 year olds being followed (and coaced) by adylts.  Really felt for them.

That would have been the last camporee I ever went to. Its worse than having a chaperone. You have a really loud annoying chaperone.