The PLC Has Decided: Mixed Aged Patrols in May

[Sentinel947]

 "well trained Eagle asm", 

 

 

One may be physically present without having understood the training. I wouldn't call it well trained. 

 

For a lot of folks (myself included), I had to unlearn what I had learned as a Scout. I needed to open my mind to the fact that how it was done when I was scout was not perfect (and was often wrong.) 

I think a potentially useful way to get this ASM's meddling to stop is to figure out WHY he's doing what he's doing. Clear up misconceptions or fears he might have. 

Sentinel947

[Stosh]

@@Sentinel947

 

One also has to take into consideration that for 7 years that scout was trained to lead, not necessarily teach and now that the role has changed from leading to teaching to lead, this is a whole new ballgame for that Eagle ASM.

 

For 7 years he was taught to lead, now he has to acquire a taste for camp coffee and let the next boys lead.  I'm not totally sold on Eagles making good ASM's without some untraining along the way.

[Eagle94-A1]

 "well trained Eagle asm", 

 

 

One may be physically present without having understood the training. I wouldn't call it well trained. 

 

For a lot of folks (myself included), I had to unlearn what I had learned as a Scout. I needed to open my mind to the fact that how it was done when I was scout was not perfect (and was often wrong.) 

 

Sentinel947

 

@@Sentinel947

 

One also has to take into consideration that for 7 years that scout was trained to lead, not necessarily teach and now that the role has changed from leading to teaching to lead, this is a whole new ballgame for that Eagle ASM.

 

For 7 years he was taught to lead, now he has to acquire a taste for camp coffee and let the next boys lead.  I'm not totally sold on Eagles making good ASM's without some untraining along the way.

 

AMEN! I admit I was a horrible ASM at 18 and 19, to the point where some of the Scouts, including a few friends, wanted to quit when I was the "lead ASM" since I was at summer cmap the entire week, and the other adults were in and out. Thankfully the SM at the time went though the same problem with his Sea Scout ship, and was able top correct my course.

 

"Unlearn what you have learned." Yoda.

[TAHAWK]

My first SM required a half-day "coffee" for new parents before they could go camping beside the troop or beside a patrol or backpacking on the trail with the troop or a partiol. Since he was the "Council Training Chairman for Life," and had been a major in the Army, he spoke with some authority. Also he explained why things had to be as he described. Any adult who did not get the lesson, had a second shot at the "coffee." I that failed, the adult was excluded from camping.

 

There were no commissioned Scouters who strayed. Passionately buying into Boy Scouting was an absolute requirement for being a uniformed Scouter in Troop 43.

Edited April 14, 2016 by TAHAWK

[Eagledad]

My first SM required a half-day "coffee" for new parents before they could go camping beside the troop or beside a patrol or backpacking on the trail with the troop or a partiol. Since he was the "Council Training Chairman for Life," and had been a major in the Army, he spoke with some authority. Also he explained why things ha to be as he described. Any adult who did not get the lesson, had a second shot at the "coffee." I that failed, the adult was excluded from camping.

 

There were no commissioned Scouters who strayed. Passionately buying into Boy Scouting was an absolute requirement for being a uniformed Scouter in Troop 43.

The third point of the three points for success is build a team that believes in the vision and the plan. Just about every successful unit has a group of adults like this.

 

Our SM did something similar to TAHAWKs SM. 

 

Barry

[Stosh]

My first SM required a half-day "coffee" for new parents before they could go camping beside the troop or beside a patrol or backpacking on the trail with the troop or a partiol. Since he was the "Council Training Chairman for Life," and had been a major in the Army, he spoke with some authority. Also he explained why things had to be as he described. Any adult who did not get the lesson, had a second shot at the "coffee." I that failed, the adult was excluded from camping.

 

There were no commissioned Scouters who strayed. Passionately buying into Boy Scouting was an absolute requirement for being a uniformed Scouter in Troop 43.

 

I always thought this to be part of the training once the basics are covered.   I don't think I have ever heard a parent tell me or any of my staff, "Well, no one told me!"  Ever since that parent came and pulled a patrol out of a campout early, that has been normal operating procedure for my troops.

[5yearscouter]

 "well trained Eagle asm", 

 

 

One may be physically present without having understood the training. I wouldn't call it well trained. 

 

For a lot of folks (myself included), I had to unlearn what I had learned as a Scout. I needed to open my mind to the fact that how it was done when I was scout was not perfect (and was often wrong.) 

 

I think a potentially useful way to get this ASM's meddling to stop is to figure out WHY he's doing what he's doing. Clear up misconceptions or fears he might have. 

 

Sentinel947

There is a reason why "well trained Eagle asm" was in quotes. 

Eagle 94 said himself that "he should know better and in fact does".  But knowing and doing are two different things. 

Mentoring youth in the boy scout program doesn't come automatically.  Parents need a new parent orientation of some kind. 

A reminder that they shouldn't do anything for a boy scout that they can instead just teach the boy to do for himself.  Teach a man to fish and all that.

[Stosh]

Growing up and being independent in our society is contrary to the way parents are inclined to act.  Their kids are to be athletically gifted just like Dad and be able to surpass his achievements.  They are to be intellectually gifted that if they don't make valedictorian, they at least come in well over a 3.5 GPA.  The are to be socially BFF with the parents so that they will never want to leave the basement apartment.  If the kids get too independent and self sufficient, they may leave home, establish a life of their own and never come back to visit.   All effort is made to avoid that possibility.

 

All the theoretical character building in the BSA program runs counter to all that.  Is it any wonder parents, deep down, want to sabotage that while still allowing the boys to have some fun along the way?  Their precious little boy needs to stay their precious little boy even after he turns 18 in many cases.  This is especially true for broken homes when the parent is looking at a future foreshadowing severe loneliness in their declining years.  They have been abandoned by their spouse, but they'll hang on to their children instead.  Not really all that healthy for the future of those kids.

 

So how do we present this program in light of these factors?

[BadenP]

Eagle 94

 

In spite of all the naysayers here your PLC did the right thing that will also help the boys to mature faster and be ready for what life has in store for them. Also that is the way it is supposed to be done in scouting, no patrol should be all long time friends as that could lead to disciplinary  problems in the troop. Boy Scouts is supposed to teach leadership and help boys mature into young men, you can't do that if your patrols are just  gangs of school friends. KUDO'S to your PLC.

[Sentinel947]

Eagle 94

 

In spite of all the naysayers here your PLC did the right thing that will also help the boys to mature faster and be ready for what life has in store for them. Also that is the way it is supposed to be done in scouting, no patrol should be all long time friends as that could lead to disciplinary  problems in the troop. Boy Scouts is supposed to teach leadership and help boys mature into young men, you can't do that if your patrols are just  gangs of school friends. KUDO'S to your PLC.

 

Care to share where you've discovered that revelation from? 

 

Baden Powell talked quite a bit about Scouting utilizing the power of a gang of friends. 

Edited April 18, 2016 by Sentinel947

[TAHAWK]

Eagle 94

 

In spite of all the naysayers here your PLC did the right thing that will also help the boys to mature faster and be ready for what life has in store for them. Also that is the way it is supposed to be done in scouting, no patrol should be all long time friends as that could lead to disciplinary  problems in the troop. Boy Scouts is supposed to teach leadership and help boys mature into young men, you can't do that if your patrols are just  gangs of school friends. KUDO'S to your PLC.

n     “Scouting offers what boys want: outdoor adventures, being with their friends….â€

         B.S.A. website, 2016

n      â€œthey self-select and they are friends….â€

         B.S.A., Scouting blog, 2015

n     “Scouts should be encouraged to invite their friends to join the troop and become a member of their patrol.â€

         B.S.A. website, 2016

 

n     “ ‘You set up a structure—six to eight Scouts—and let them figure it out,’ he says.

n     ‘Boys are going to want to stick together if you can use their friendships to put together a team.’ â€

  

    B.S.A., Scouting (May-June 2012)(quoting child psychologist

      Dr. Brett Laursen )

[Eagle94-A1]

A bit of an update.

 

Leader's Meeting

 

There was a leader's meeting last night prior to the Court of Honor. I was only able to attend a few minutes as I had to sit on Boards of Review (don't ask, I've been in a SA position, but still registered as MC). Anyway from the outline the SM created, and basically told the other adults "this is how we are doing it," this is what will be happening effective May 2nd.

 

1) Each patrol will be assigned an ASM as patrol counselor, and that PC's job is to train, mentor, and advise the PL. Other PCs, as well as ALL of the leaders' jobs will be to keep an eye on each other and make sure we don't turn it into Webelos IIIs.

 

2) PLC members, and select others, will go through training to understand the importance of their newly given authority to sign off on advancement.

 

3) The adults will be expecting more out of the PLC; we won't be "saving" them when they screw up.

 

 

Boards of Review

 

The 3 Scouts I sat on BORs for were all in the NSP. When asked what they would change, all said nothing because we are getting rid of the NSP after camporee. 

 

Court of Honor

 

EXTREMELY PROUD OF THE SPL AND THE SCOUTS! (emphasis, and a wee bit of shouting at the top of my lungs ) This was the first time the Scouts had any say in how the Court of Honor was conducted. All I did was  hand the SPL several copies of COH scripts, told him to look up some if he wants, and use it this week making sure he shared it with the SM. Ok did the SPL do research, NO. Did he ask which script to use, YES. Replied with, "you're the SPL, you're in charge." Did the SPL ask who the MC was going to be, YES. Did I repeat my reply above, YES. Did he make some mistakes, ABSOLUTELY. Did he learn from them, I SURE HOPE SO. Did he do a great job for taking charge for the first time. YES HE DID. 

[Stosh]

Couple of questions/observations/comments  @@Eagle94-A1

 

1) I am assuming that your troop does not use Troop Guides and instead are going with adults directly involved with each patrol all the way up to what the BSA refers to as Venture Patrols of experienced scouts?  Yes, I am sure it's going to be a great challenge to use the Cub Scout organizational structure to keep from turning your Venture Patrols into Webelos IV patrols.

 

2) I'm sure this also means that the troop will no longer honor functional TG POR's anymore with the adults doing that responsibility?

 

3) I'm also thinking that if the Patrol Counselors are keeping a hovering eye on the patrols, that the responsibility of the SPL has been relegated down to COH emcee, announcement reader at flag opening ceremonies, and refereeing the PLC?

 

4) With the removal of the strong troop level POR's (SPL, ASPL, TG, etc.) that basically leaves the PL's in charge of their patrols.  This is great if that is really the case.  With every boy in the troop fully knowledgeable about the advancement policies, it would be interesting to know what training the PL's are going to need to sign off on advancement.

 

5) What can a PLC do to screw up?  I've never had a PLC so I just figure that if they did nothing, they wouldn't screw up and would have to plan on doing something stupid to fall into that category? 

 

6) Getting rid of the NSP?  Like all the boys are going to be kicked out of scouting?  The BOR question about what changes do they want to see in the troop and no one answered?  Maybe they all realize the change is going to happen and it's not something they have any control over.    Why answer a question when the answer they give is already planned on being ignored.  Maybe their silence meant they want things to stay the same as they have it now.... well, that ain't gonna happen.    When I "get rid" of my NSP it means that after a year and the new batch of Webelos boys comes in, I start referring to these new scouts as the NSP and quit calling the other boys the New Boys.  Nothing else changes unless the boys make the change.  Time alone causes the name New Scout Patrol to change to Regular Patrol.  Interest alone causes the name Regular Patrol to change to Venture Patrol.  Nothing really changes, just the names and focus of the patrol's programming.

 

7) Okay, COH's 100% run by the adults one time, next time, COH's 100% run by the boys.  Here's some suggestions, do what you want!  WOW!  HERE COMES THE BUS!! (and the adults aren't gonna keep you from failing!) 

 

A little pokin' fun, a little sarcasm, in my post, yep, but remember, that from where you started to where you are now, there's a lot of pride in seeing what you've done.  You have a long ways to go to change the details and herd all the adults back into the coffee corral, but you have mentally made everyone aware of the need for the boys taking over the reins.  That, for a lot of troops, is all but impossible. 

 

Take your Patrol Counselors and have them mentor/train Troop Guides so that THEY can do the job instead of an adult.  Give the PL's a chance to do the job and fail rather than assume they don't know anything and need to be trained.  I have turned over responsibilities to POR's "assuming" they knew what they were doing having watched others.  Most of them did just fine but occasionally they would ask if they needed guidance and YES, they all did fantastic,  This of course saved me a lot of training time I would have wasted and I would garner a lot brownie points for not assuming the boy was "just a kid" and couldn't handle a big boy job without some adult hovering over his shoulder.   Kids are a lot more focused on doing it right than many adults give them credit for.  I have had boys over the years that simply can't make simple choices in life because they are paralyzed by fear when face with the dilemma.  Some of my best leaders have garnered up the most failures.  They at least keep trying and pushing ahead.

 

You've got the scent of the trail, that's 90% of the job, now all one has to do is track down the details and I would suggest having the boys TEACH YOU what they want out of the troop!    Once you have that, you have it all!

 

Well done!

[TAHAWK]

Standard BSA tables of organization contain "Assist SM New-Scout Patrol" and "Asst. SM Venture Patrol."

 

It is wise to worry about how adults will behave given the evidence we have, but it is not a given that adults will cross the line.

[blw2]

The more I hear about schools today, the more I am convinced I grew up in the Golden Age of the United States and since then it has progressively gone down hill.... with an emphasis on "progressively".  Pun intended.

Now Stosh, I really doubt if everything was just peachy for generations before... and only just started going down hill when you reached adulthood....

Your parents almost certainly said the same thing, as did your grand parents, etc....

BUT I'll say this.... I get your point and I'll admit to having some of the same feelings.... even though I'm a half or whole generation down.... (guessing, I really don't remember how old you said you are....)

 

A bit of an update.

 

Leader's Meeting

 

There was a leader's meeting last night prior to the Court of Honor. I was only able to attend a few minutes as I had to sit on Boards of Review (don't ask, I've been in a SA position, but still registered as MC). Anyway from the outline the SM created, and basically told the other adults "this is how we are doing it," this is what will be happening effective May 2nd.

 

1) Each patrol will be assigned an ASM as patrol counselor, and that PC's job is to train, mentor, and advise the PL. Other PCs, as well as ALL of the leaders' jobs will be to keep an eye on each other and make sure we don't turn it into Webelos IIIs.

 

2) PLC members, and select others, will go through training to understand the importance of their newly given authority to sign off on advancement.

 

3) The adults will be expecting more out of the PLC; we won't be "saving" them when they screw up.

 

 

Boards of Review

 

The 3 Scouts I sat on BORs for were all in the NSP. When asked what they would change, all said nothing because we are getting rid of the NSP after camporee. 

 

Court of Honor

 

EXTREMELY PROUD OF THE SPL AND THE SCOUTS! (emphasis, and a wee bit of shouting at the top of my lungs ) This was the first time the Scouts had any say in how the Court of Honor was conducted. All I did was  hand the SPL several copies of COH scripts, told him to look up some if he wants, and use it this week making sure he shared it with the SM. Ok did the SPL do research, NO. Did he ask which script to use, YES. Replied with, "you're the SPL, you're in charge." Did the SPL ask who the MC was going to be, YES. Did I repeat my reply above, YES. Did he make some mistakes, ABSOLUTELY. Did he learn from them, I SURE HOPE SO. Did he do a great job for taking charge for the first time. YES HE DID. 

Eagle 94-A1

I was going to suggest, that in your advisory role as committee member, might be a good idea for you to remind your SM that ASM advisers mentioned in pint one, really do need to be reminded to not turn the patrols into WEBELOS dens....

just sayin...

 

Edited April 19, 2016 by blw2