The PLC Has Decided: Mixed Aged Patrols in May

[qwazse]

If an adult won't listen to another adult when asked to stay out of the Scouts hair, I doubt the adult will for a youth. Now if the SM said it, I would hope so.

That's a big huge crock. People who are in the habit of jumping authority will do so without discrimination. I've never pulled the "Youre not the SM" card on any adult who thought they needed to correct me. I took plenty of stuff under advisement and followed the best advice (usually that meant the handbook).

 

It's like what Mamma told me when I was bullied, "Get big."

By that, she meant that she was not gonna stand up to my oppressors for me, at least not until I held my ground and let my erstwhile buddies know that they may have at it, but tears would no longer come readily.

 

It's not a matter of what the adults will heed. It's a matter of the scout doing his best.

[desertrat77]

Axe yard protocol is a safety concern. At that point all due respect is put aside.

Speaking of axe yards and adult-led troops...I've regaled everyone in years past about a certain year at camp where my PL was so disgusted by our meddling/donkey-like SM that he (my PL) ripped the PL patch off his uniform, walked into the axe yard with no permission, yanked the axe out of a scout's hands, and then proceeded to chop the PL patch with about a dozen wild swings.   I don't know if he actually damaged the patch, but he seemed in better spirits when he was done.   

 

We scouts knew what was up and just let the storm pass.

 

Adult leaders can sorely vex scouts, particularly if the scouts are trying to be mature and accomplish something.

[Stosh]

It depends.  My scouts have used the ax yard to get away from the pressure of the event.  My scouts have used the ax yard to get out of doing their responsibility to the patrol.  My scouts have used the ax yard to whittle.  None of which is ax yard protocol and have nothing to do with safety.  With all due respect, there are more safety issues in the food prep area than in the ax yard. 

[Eagledad]

That's a big huge crock. People who are in the habit of jumping authority will do so without discrimination. I've never pulled the "Youre not the SM" card on any adult who thought they needed to correct me. I took plenty of stuff under advisement and followed the best advice (usually that meant the handbook).

 

 

ONLY ONCE! It is my experience any adult who defies the guideline of only the SM or SPL talking scout business to scouts is on the verge of abuse because they lost control. Our troop has restricted several adults from the scouts after these incidents. 

 

I do agree that scouts need to learn to stand up for themselves, but getting scouts to trust that the adults really are giving them the power to lead and manage their troop is a fragile ideal that takes time to develop. Scouts know when they really have the freedom to make their own right and wrong choices. 

 

The SM sets the level of respect between the scouts and the adults. When that respect isn't equal, the scouts will always be the boys and the scouters always the adults.

 

Barry

Edited April 13, 2016 by Eagledad

[Stosh]

That's a big huge crock. People who are in the habit of jumping authority will do so without discrimination. I've never pulled the "Youre not the SM" card on any adult who thought they needed to correct me. I took plenty of stuff under advisement and followed the best advice (usually that meant the handbook).

 

It's like what Mamma told me when I was bullied, "Get big."

By that, she meant that she was not gonna stand up to my oppressors for me, at least not until I held my ground and let my erstwhile buddies know that they may have at it, but tears would no longer come readily.

 

It's not a matter of what the adults will heed. It's a matter of the scout doing his best.

 

We seem to spend a lot of time promoting and teaching the boy-led, patrol-method approach to scouting.  We train our SM's and ASM's, our CC and MC's. and make sure all the I's are dotted and the t's crossed. and then we head out into the woods dragging along a bunch of parents who have not been oriented, trained, or,  even a lot of times, a clue to what's going on other than they are expecting to have bonding time with their kid.

 

We don't camp 300' apart so the parent in a fit of boredom hangs out with his kid and starts interfering, many times without knowing what the procedures are. 

 

I have had boys get out of camp clean up by calling a parent and pulling out of camp without even telling any of the adult leaders.  My ASM came to me and said he couldn't find a whole patrol.  No boys, no gear, nothing.  After a few phone calls we found out the older boys didn't want to help the younger boys clean up the camp and got up early, called and had a parent give them a ride home.  The parent had no idea she was being duped anymore than the scout leaders.

 

How much assumption training has been done with the parents (and new scouters for that matter) when it comes to how the troop is being run?  YPT doesn't cover the patrol-method very well, neither does committee member training or MBC training.  All the Cub training avoids it.  As a matter of fact SM/ASM training does not do well on covering it other than lip-service.

 

So when we rant on our adults, maybe instead of having them sitting around being bored watching the boys have fun, they get some training on why they are bored and the boys are having fun.

 

As SM I have spend a lot of time with my staff as well as my parents going over the program of the BSA (even the lip-service to the patrol method) and cover this with every parent that comes into the program.  I explain that the more they interfere the less likely their boys is going to stay with Scouting so if they want to come out and console their boy when he gets homesick or has to run out to retrieve their star baseball player so he won't miss a game during the week of summer camp, they might want to consider saving the money and putting it somewhere other than in Scouts.  They also get the flat out speech - if you don't want your boy to grow up and mature in the next few years and you want him to stay your precious little boy, don't sign him up for Boy Scouts.

 

Because of this, I find that the parents I do have show up really don't mess with the boys when they are at activities.  They sit in the back and remain silent, usually reading a book or playing with their cell phones on mute.  Summer camp for the boys only has two adults from the troop with them.  The SM and the ASM.  Both the SM and ASM bring along 2-3 books to read.  There are no others present.  The invite is always open to have any parent sit in on any activity, some do and most don't.  But what happens is that they only sit in and keep quiet. 

 

How many troops out there have training programs for the parents?  And how many just have rules limiting what parents can and can't do and assume they are going to be automatically followed?

[Eagle94-A1]

In the situation I'm referring to, it is a trained ASM who is an Eagle, and hence SHOULD (emphasis) know better, and in fact does. But when it comes to his son, he thinks he knows best, and BSA is messed up. Don't get me started on that one.

 

Long story short, a lot of the problems started when his pack and troop folded, and he transferred over to us. Maybe that's why his pack and troop folded. sad thing is, the guy has a ton of knowledge, skills and abilities. he can be a vital asset to the troop, IF he would learn some patience and learn to stay out of the Scouts way.

 

I think I may use some military analogies on him he may understand. The Scouts are the "grunts" in the field doing what they are suppose to be doing, or doing their best to accomplish and learning from their mistakes, and he's being the REMF, who is screwing things up and frustrating the Scouts.

[Stosh]

In the situation I'm referring to, it is a trained ASM who is an Eagle, and hence SHOULD (emphasis) know better, and in fact does. But when it comes to his son, he thinks he knows best, and BSA is messed up. Don't get me started on that one.

 

Long story short, a lot of the problems started when his pack and troop folded, and he transferred over to us. Maybe that's why his pack and troop folded. sad thing is, the guy has a ton of knowledge, skills and abilities. he can be a vital asset to the troop, IF he would learn some patience and learn to stay out of the Scouts way.

 

I think I may use some military analogies on him he may understand. The Scouts are the "grunts" in the field doing what they are suppose to be doing, or doing their best to accomplish and learning from their mistakes, and he's being the REMF, who is screwing things up and frustrating the Scouts.

 

Oh, but Eagle Scouts with all that Scouting under their belt are the best recruits for adult leadership....

 

Give me Billy Bob back woods aficionado with his pickup truck, any day.  

 

I have seen some fantastic Real Eagles and then there are the other Eagles.  The label on the outside doesn't guarantee the contents on the inside.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Stosh

[Eagledad]

Oh, but Eagle Scouts with all that Scouting under their belt are the best recruits for adult leadership....

 

Give me Billy Bob back woods aficionado with his pickup truck, any day.  

 

 

Well lets see, as the district commissioner, I'm starting a new troop and I get to choose between Eagle94 or Billy Bob to be the SM. Hmm, thinking, thinking.......

 

Barry

[Krampus]

In the situation I'm referring to, it is a trained ASM who is an Eagle, and hence SHOULD (emphasis) know better, and in fact does. But when it comes to his son, he thinks he knows best, and BSA is messed up. Don't get me started on that one.

 

Long story short, a lot of the problems started when his pack and troop folded, and he transferred over to us. Maybe that's why his pack and troop folded. sad thing is, the guy has a ton of knowledge, skills and abilities. he can be a vital asset to the troop, IF he would learn some patience and learn to stay out of the Scouts way.

 

I think I may use some military analogies on him he may understand. The Scouts are the "grunts" in the field doing what they are suppose to be doing, or doing their best to accomplish and learning from their mistakes, and he's being the REMF, who is screwing things up and frustrating the Scouts.

 

This guy should be put in charge of training the trainer (Scouts). Have him develop your TLT, teach it and then get out of the way. That's a great way to leverage his skills and enthusiasm BUT get him out of the Scouts' hair.

[Stosh]

That's one of the big issues that face units where the troop alumni don't move on to greener pastures, but stay local.  They have a real problem going from Veteran SPL/JASM to 15th ASM.  "Now that I'm an adult, I get to run the show like the other adults have been doing all along!" while at the same time can't figure out why they can't camp with their patrol buddies anymore.

[desertrat77]

In the situation I'm referring to, it is a trained ASM who is an Eagle, and hence SHOULD (emphasis) know better, and in fact does. But when it comes to his son, he thinks he knows best, and BSA is messed up. Don't get me started on that one.

 

Long story short, a lot of the problems started when his pack and troop folded, and he transferred over to us. Maybe that's why his pack and troop folded. sad thing is, the guy has a ton of knowledge, skills and abilities. he can be a vital asset to the troop, IF he would learn some patience and learn to stay out of the Scouts way.

 

I think I may use some military analogies on him he may understand. The Scouts are the "grunts" in the field doing what they are suppose to be doing, or doing their best to accomplish and learning from their mistakes, and he's being the REMF, who is screwing things up and frustrating the Scouts.

True, Eagle94, there are military folks that don't see their blind spot(s).   The military sometimes overlooks a toxic leadership style or tic as long he/she gets the job done (despite the broken glass).    The results are more striking in the civilian and civic world.   Folks don't have to put up with it, and leave.

 

Another mil analogy for your consideration:   "Did you like it when the first sergeant or sergeant major was breathing down your neck, watching your every move, pouncing every time you screwed up?"

 

Him:   "Uh, no!"

 

"You are doing the same ******* thing to the scouts--back off, get a cup of coffee, and let them figure things out on their own!"

 

Edited April 13, 2016 by desertrat77

[Eagle94-A1]

Another mil analogy for your consideration:   "Did you like it when the first sergeant or sergeant major was breathing down your neck, watching your every move, pouncing every time you screwed up?"

 

Him:   "Uh, no!"

 

"You are doing the same ******* thing to the scouts--back off, get a cup of coffee, and let them figure things out on their own!"

 

 

That may be a very good one.

[5yearscouter]

Our old scoutmaster had this thing that he did whenever the new parents were in the scout's hair too much.

It was almost always "Hey Mr. xyz I need some help moving this table." and then he'd spend 10-15-30 minutes having the guy move the table all.over.the.place all the while talking about how the scouts are learning so much as they do thru the motions of doing yadda yadda yadda today without adult intrusion.  We started to occasionally suggest that so and so needed to go move a table whenever they were being too involved in the youths activities.

 

A few adults it had to  also involve some could you help the advancement chair fill out these advancement cards and then file them, or would you help us out cause we need 25 feet of rope out of the attic in one of the boxes up there, not sure which box (while youth quartermaster had already gotten out all the rope he needed). 

 

There was also, for a "well trained Eagle asm", the Hey Mr. XYZ could you explain and show to these other adults how the patrol method works and tell them how much fun you had in your patrol as a scout.  And on campouts suggest that he help the adults could set up our camp like an old goats patrol as an example to the youth of the proper way to set up a camp. (let him get out his OCD tendencies for perfection on the adults who are very capable of standing up for themselves if is he's too bossy).

 

And when at camp and he's wandering towards the youth campsite to meddle, a bit of hey we need to lash our own camp tool or pioneering project to show the boys how much fun it is.  Can you help? (This is where the adults would lash together a  swing and then take turns pushing each other like little kids.)

 

In other words, put that adult to work doing something that isn't being soooooo involved with what the youth are doing and bonus points if he feels useful and has a little bit of fun.  Then afterwards show him how successful the boys were without too much help

[5yearscouter]

Unfortunately our current scoutmaster is a bit of a meddler himself.  I'm always trying to figure out how to get him to help me move a table.

[Stosh]

There are a lot of parents who think that unless the SM is meddling in the affairs of the boys he isn't doing his job!  I have been chastised by parents who see their son struggling with a challenge and I'm standing around with a cup of coffee in my hand jaw-jacking.

 

This is where proper adult/parent training comes into place.