The PLC Has Decided: Mixed Aged Patrols in May

[Eagle94-A1]

Yes they are. TG, SPL's approval, has backed away somewhat because they SHOULD be able to do things without him. His goal this weekend was to have them do things for themselves, make mistakes, and grow from it.

 

Here's the funny thing. Saturday until dinner was no problem. Issues with KP that the SPL resolved. THE NSP WAS GETTING THINGS DONE! Then the morning KP fiasco and the adults jumping in ruined it all.

 

Agree, the SPL and/or the SM should have jumped in and dealt with the ASM. I hate to say it, but IMHO our society is not teaching kids to be thinkers and leaders. In my experience Scouting is the only youth organization that does it. And right now I and the troop are failing the Scouts

 

Actually dad relented, and gave the son the choice of going to camporee, or going backpacking with dad to scout out our May trip since that weekend is the only weekend dad can scout the trail.  Let's see, going to camporee with events that are beyond the abilities of the scouts in my patrol, dealing with adults bugging the heck out of me, and being miserable OR doing something I love, backpacking, with my dad and scouting the trail for the troop. No brainer.

 

Dad and son are both frustrated and have been for a while. There has been talk of switching to another troop that does more backpacking. And while he is a leader, he is a dad first.

 

Actually it didn't last long. The decision changed to "patrol counselors" mentoring the PLs. I have mixed emotions onPCs. Only 1 troop I was in used it effectively; the PC advised and mentored the PL, and worked to get another leader for patrol camping if the Scouts wanted another camp out. The other one had some challenges (not as bad as this though). But the troops I've seen using it, it appears to be Webelos III. So I have big reservations on it.

 

I agree with giving responsibility and authority to the Scouts. I've seen it work, know it works, and want it with this troop.

 

And I have also seen what happens when you do not give responsibility and authority. We have 1 troop dying, and this troop has the potential to die.

 

Part of the TG's goal this week, and really the entire month, is to show they can do it without him. And it was working until the adults butted in. Was it working perfectly, no. SPL and TG had to intervene once this weekend, until the Sunday KP fiasco.

 

Tell me about it. It got heated. Asked me to name 1 scout who could teach a class decently. I named two within the past year for wilderness survival and backpacking. was told those weren't basic skills. My next question was this: HOW DO THEY GET THE EXPEREINCE IF WE DON'T LET THEM TRY (emphasis, ok maybe a little loud voice cause to me it's obvious.)

 

 

EXACTLY!  We have some great youth. are they rough, yes. Do they need some mentoring and advising. Absolutely. BUT THEY DO NOT NEED US INTERFERING AND GETTING INTHE WAY (emphasis)

 

Yep. I know. I'm screwing up too. I keep trying to get the adults out of their hair, but this one adults keeps blazing in. We need to get the adults out, but I need to convince the others to do it that way. 

 

Regarding reorganization, we are trying to instill in the older guys "servant leadership," and "it's time to give back to the troop," and "You need to work with these guys to keep the troop going and doing more than the same old same old."

 

As for the Mrs., trust me I'm listening. I had a brief thought that if they troop becomes "Webelos III" I might as well go back to the pack and help them since they are starting to struggle.

 

BUT then I realized who would stand up for the Scouts against the adults trying to ruin the program?

[qwazse]

I can think of 3 things:

• Remind the adults that if we love our boys: show it by respecting them and each other. Insist the COR and CC identify the interim SM by next week. Then you all huddle around that QB. It might not get the championship, but at least you'll be in the play-offs.
• Teach the SPL the line "Respectfully, sir, this is a boy's meeting." Even the adult side-bars should not be had in the absence of the SPL.
• Three straight meals of PP+J and asparagus for boys who don't plan. (That includes blowing off KP.) How is this complicated?

Provide adult education opportunities while the boys are meeting. You need to boil down your laundry list to two or three three things. You ain't fixing anything if you're trying to fix everything at once. I could give you my priorities, but that's because I'm thinking about what I need to do with my people, not yours. Really, your wife sounds like she has some focus. Let her help you nail this down.

[Eagledad]

I can think of 3 things:

• Remind the adults that if we love our boys: show it by respecting them and each other. Insist the COR and CC identify the interim SM by next week. Then you all huddle around that QB. It might not get the championship, but at least you'll be in the play-offs.
• Teach the SPL the line "Respectfully, sir, this is a boy's meeting." Even the adult side-bars should not be had in the absence of the SPL.
• Three straight meals of PP+J and asparagus for boys who don't plan. (That includes blowing off KP.) How is this complicated?

Provide adult education opportunities while the boys are meeting. You need to boil down your laundry list to two or three three things. You ain't fixing anything if you're trying to fix everything at once. I could give you my priorities, but that's because I'm thinking about what I need to do with my people, not yours. Really, your wife sounds like she has some focus. Let her help you nail this down.

Pretty good stuff. However I have never seen "Respectfully, sir, this is a boy's meeting."  work very well without the SM having the SPLs back. Adults will give up their  pseudo respect the moment they feel the subject of the interruption trumps the kid's junior title. True respect has to be earned even in a boy scout troop and that won't happen without a SM running interference for the SPL. 

 

The a Troop is a boy's size experience of the real world. But, the SM has to protect the frail Troop experience from the intrusive blunt real world for a boy to grow.

 

Barry

[Krampus]

Pretty good stuff. However I have never seen "Respectfully, sir, this is a boy's meeting."  work very well without the SM having the SPLs back. Adults will give up their  pseudo respect the moment they feel the subject of the interruption trumps the kid's junior title. True respect has to be earned even in a boy scout troop and that won't happen without a SM running interference for the SPL. 

 

The a Troop is a boy's size experience of the real world. But, the SM has to protect the frail Troop experience from the intrusive blunt real world for a boy to grow.

 

Barry

 

Yup, the SM and all the ASM need to help enforce this.

 

In our unit the boys use the phrase, "I have this Mr. Smith." and that's your cue to go get a cup of coffee or go whittle something (in the axe yard).

[Stosh]

Gee, my boys use, "With all due respect, Mr. Smith...." all the time and we never have a problem.  As far as "protecting" the boy from the 'real world out there' we do all we can to arm them to protect themselves.  I guess it's a bit different for everyone. 

 

Granted it's not used very often, but it seems to be reserved for the parents that have difficulty with the boy-led process and find it necessary to try and usurp the boy's authority.  It's a polite way of giving notice that the troop is boy-led.  It's really no different than saying "I have this, Mr. Smith..." other than reaffirming that the comment is given with all respect for the adult and their position in the troop.  It allows them an opportunity to save face and get a cup of coffee without a big to-do.

 

By the way, "With all due respect, Mr. >>>>" is taught to my boys right from the beginning once they cross over into the NSP.  Respect is given in the troop until the boy or adult demonstrates they don't deserve it.  Kinda backwards from having to earn it, but it works for us. 

[Eagledad]

Gee, my boys use, "With all due respect, Mr. Smith...." all the time and we never have a problem.  As far as "protecting" the boy from the 'real world out there' we do all we can to arm them to protect themselves.  I guess it's a bit different for everyone. 

 

 

No it's the same, just a different way of saying it. The reason your scouts use "With all due respect" all the time with no problems is because their Scoutmaster enforces the respect. 

 

Barry

[blw2]

Gee, my boys use, "With all due respect, Mr. Smith...." all the time and we never have a problem.  As far as "protecting" the boy from the 'real world out there' we do all we can to arm them to protect themselves.  I guess it's a bit different for everyone. 

 

Granted it's not used very often, but it seems to be reserved for the parents that have difficulty with the boy-led process and find it necessary to try and usurp the boy's authority.  It's a polite way of giving notice that the troop is boy-led.  It's really no different than saying "I have this, Mr. Smith..." other than reaffirming that the comment is given with all respect for the adult and their position in the troop.  It allows them an opportunity to save face and get a cup of coffee without a big to-do.

 

By the way, "With all due respect, Mr. >>>>" is taught to my boys right from the beginning once they cross over into the NSP.  Respect is given in the troop until the boy or adult demonstrates they don't deserve it.  Kinda backwards from having to earn it, but it works for us. 

 

but with all due respect to Stosh, I have always hated that phrase.

"with all due respect.."

becasue

what it really means is

"I WANT to respect you, but right now I don't, and my next sentence will be something that disrespects you."

 

Personally, I like Krampus' "I've got this Mr. Jones...."

just semantics

[Stosh]

With any and all respect due to you and your position, I with all the respect I have for you, I must insist doing it my own way.

 

One has to stop and understand the words in order to understand the meaning.  Just because one hates the phrase and redefines it according to one's own interpretation, doesn't change it's meaning.

 

"With my deepest love" I must insist on doing it my own way, does not mean "I want to love you, but right now I don't and my next sentence will be something that indicates I hate you."  Just doesn't add up.

 

@@Krampus when he says, "I've got this Mr. Smith,..." seems to be more push aside Mr. Smith with no respect intended.  I see that as a bit more like, "I'm going to do it my way, please step aside." kinda feeling for me.  Nothing wrong with that, sometimes adults need to hear that, but if one wishes to emphasize there is no ill feeling, I would stick with the "respect due to you" kinda feeling kinds of statements.

[Krampus]

@@Krampus when he says, "I've got this Mr. Smith,..." seems to be more push aside Mr. Smith with no respect intended.

 

 

With all due respect to Mr. Smith, he's been told to stay out of the kids' hair unless it is a health or safety reason. He ought to know better than to be there in the first place. He ought to know better than to address the Scouts rather than addressing the PL or SPL. He ought to know better than to be over there without a second adult anyway.

 

When Mr. Smith starts respecting the SM, the troop rules, BSA policy and the youth leaders, Mr. Smith can gripe about not being addressed with the phrase "With all due respect...". 

 

Just sayin'.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Krampus

[desertrat77]

"...with all due respect..." is a phrased I learned early in my military career.   It's traditionally used as a preface when addressing a superior and you're about to inform him/her of something he/she probably doesn't want to hear (but must) or runs contrary to their particular position on a matter.

 

Used correctly, no disrespect is conveyed.   It's a handy verbal device to let everyone know a professional disagreement is about to commence, and the participants are cued as to their parts in the "kabuki dance."

 

I realize the BSA is not the military, but I think the phrase is useful.   A disagreement should not be personal, and if it is, nothing much good is going to come of it, even if the phrase is used.

[Stosh]

With all due respect to Mr. Smith, he's been told to stay out of the kids' hair unless it is a health or safety reason. He ought to know better than to be there in the first place. He ought to know better than to address the Scouts rather than addressing the PL or SPL. He ought to know better than to be over there without a second adult anyway.

 

When Mr. Smith starts respecting the SM, the troop rules, BSA policy and the youth leaders, Mr. Smith can gripe about not being addressed with the phrase "With all due respect...". 

 

Just sayin'.

 

I totally understand where you're coming from and as yet, common courtesy, my boys are instructed not to get down on the level of an errant person, but to stay above the fray and be polite even if someone else is screwing up royally and making a pain of themselves.   A Scout is courteous even when others around them aren't.  Mr. Smith might be new, might be whatever, one doesn't need to judge their motive, they are just not in the place they are supposed to be for good or bad.  Like @@desertrat77 says, "With all due respect"  is a proper and courteous means of entering into a non-personal possible confrontation allowing the offender an opportunity to step aside without being pushed.  I dunno, maybe the new generation have redefined things in this new world far different than what I grew up in.

[qwazse]

There are cultural/language variances.

 

Bottom line: the SPL needs to draw clear lines ... even if others are inclined to cross them.

 

Most adults will keep on doing what they will until they hear from a youth leader. Then, they will either apologize, nod in acquiescence, or sputter and fume. If it's the latter, the youth may need to defer. Ideally he can ask another leader to help resolve the issue. Regardless, keeping silent is a guarantee that everyone will think SNAFU and let the squeakiest wheels have their fiefdoms.

[Stosh]

When I teach my boys, "With all due respect...." it comes with the further instruction that they are empowered and can and should speak up when others, even those who appear to be in "higher authority", aren't playing by the rules.  Adults stepping in, SPL being bossy, PL putting one's name on the duty roster for every meal all week of summer camp, etc.  This isn't reserved for only the youth, it applies to SM's when ASM's feel he/she is coloring outside the lines.  It applies to an adult seeing a scout not observing axe yard protocol, etc.  Everyone above and below oneself deserves a courteous rebuke at times and this is how it's done..... "With all due respect"

[Krampus]

Axe yard protocol is a safety concern. At that point all due respect is put aside.

[Eagle94-A1]

If an adult won't listen to another adult when asked to stay out of the Scouts hair, I doubt the adult will for a youth. Now if the SM said it, I would hope so.