Have had just about enough!

[Krampus]

When I left the Lodge..We had a Great Dance team..We had Tepees..We built Arbors for the Drummers and Singers. ...Guide  would lead the Visitors along a Trail to the far end of Camp through the Woods...to be Challenged by Spirt Warriors along the Path...in the distance Drums and singers could be heard...They would be welcome to the Circle..Scouts sat in a Half moon on the Ground...Elders and Siblings sat on log Benches. Chief would welcome everyone...Medicine man would offer a prayer....Dance team would perform....just before sunset Medicine man would offer a blessing to the Spirits to welcome new members...Fire would magically light... Dancers would be out in the Scouts...and On Drum Beat...Candidate would be swooshed out of Crowd and Tapped out...Receive a Block of Wood and a willow wreath...To Bring Back to ordeal ( to be burned...Block of Wood was to be carved into an Arrow..) At Ordeal if you Violated silence you got a Notch...3 you were out of Ordeal..

 

We had Pre-ordeal memorized. We had Ordeal Memorized, We had Brotherhood, Memorized Vigil...We had Regalia. As Soon as a Ceremonies team member made the Next Level they started learning the Next Ceremony to step in...We knew all Parts...

 

Wow...I am impressed!! That sounds like a great experience for the boys on both sides of the line.

 

Our unit has a ceremonial team which provides crossover services for local Packs and does our own tap out. Just did the tap out last night. Kids, parents and participants thought it was great. Much more special than being 4 of 200 Scouts called out in a 2.5 hour ceremony at district camp.

 

I'd like to see more units and districts do these things to make OA special again. It is a lost art.

[Oldscout448]

If we want to sit around the campfire here and tell tales of how it was in the old days ( for me 1974- 1982 )  I will gratefully listen and hand out the coffee and donuts,    I loved being a part of something special,  something hard,  we did the difficult work, the dirty work, and we were proud of it.

 

jpstodtexas  you would have fit in well I think.  We did much the same thing, a few differences of course,  but the whole point was to make being tapped out something that the candidate would remember the rest of his scouting days.    And the Ordeal the rest of his life.  I remember watching a Vigil tapout a summer camp that just left everyone in awe.  One second class scout at his first summer camp told me the next morning " That was just amazing!  What is this Order thing all about anyway?  Thats when I knew we were doing it right!    It took huge amounts of work ( as well you know )  but we all counted it as well worth the cost.   We were adding "sticks" to the "fire" one by one.  Keeping it going  for the the next generation of scouting.

 

Now  just wonder if all that even mattered,  I hope in my heart it did to someone, But no one even seems to remember  that it was once different.  I can not even get the district to consider having the Ordeal Ceremony after sunset.  " To much work for the cook crew " they cry  " a lot of us need to go home at 7:00pm ", "we have a  ballgame/band practice/ hot date/ track meet....."    In vain do I point out that the ceremony is much more impressive in the dark and therefor more likely to impress and keep new brothers active. they just dont care." Just get the right number of new members this year and the chapter gets a gold star from the Lodge.  If we run late our numbers might drop"  O the horror !

 

The order was never  supposed to be about numbers!   it was always the few,  the proud. ( apolgies to all jarheads)

 

Hendrick  ya that was me, and one of the scouts was my son who had arrived home from school about one in the morning,  he and the chief deserve a flipping gold  medal or something.  I am still trying to think of something suitable that I can afford.  Who was the draftee who did Meteu? Grab him quick!   for only half an hour of practice he did a stunning job

  

I was told ( two weeks afterward)  that the reason  excuse was that not all the paperwork had gone through for all the adult candidates. So it would not be fair to give a public call out to some scouters and not others.   I just about exploded. It is Not about the scouters!!  It is about the scouts!  and for this you were willing to have 20 or so scouts drive ( or be driven by their proud parents)  for miles only to be told " sorry you arent important enough for us to go to the effort of doing what we promised"  

What in ....

 

This is hard to type without using unscoutlike words

 

I can not think of a better way to make sure those 20 scouts never ever come back.  In fact I would bet on 100% " sash and dash"  assuming they even bothered coming to the Ordeal.

 

I have no plans of quitting the Order, but I have been assured by several other chapters that I would by most welcome and I must admit I am giving it a lot of thought tonight

 

WWW Oldscout

Edited April 7, 2016 by Oldscout448

[hendrickms24]

Hendrick  ya that was me, and one of the scouts was my son who had arrived home from school about one in the morning,  he and the chief deserve a flipping gold  medal or something.  I am still trying to think of something suitable that I can afford.  Who was the draftee who did Meteu? Grab him quick!   for only half an hour of practice he did a stunning job

  

I was told ( two weeks afterward)  that the reason  excuse was that not all the paperwork had gone through for all the adult candidates. So it would not be fair to give a public call out to some scouters and not others.   I just about exploded. It is Not about the scouters!!  It is about the scouts!  and for this you were willing to have 20 or so scouts drive ( or be driven by their proud parents)  for miles only to be told " sorry you arent important enough for us to go to the effort of doing what we promised"  

What in ....

 

This is hard to type without using unscoutlike words

 

I can not think of a better way to make sure those 20 scouts never ever come back.  In fact I would bet on 100% " sash and dash"  assuming they even bothered coming to the Ordeal.

 

I have no plans of quitting the Order, but I have been assured by several other chapters that I would by most welcome and I must admit I am giving it a lot of thought tonight

 

WWW Oldscout

 

Well the two scouts with speaking parts I think (since I had to leave) were Kyle (from my son's troop) and Steffon.  They are both great young men and hope to get them more involved with the OA.  I did get all the scouts and you something to show how much the chapter and I thanks them for all the help.  I will have to present my token of gratitude at the Ordeal.   I understand your feeling and can only hope for the best out come.  My chapter had no Adults called out because I had not heard back from Lodge and I really did not care.  The youth are what the program about.  I got push back about wanting to help with the chapter Vigil nomination committee.  I was told I was eligible for vigil so could not be on it.  I replied that I do not deserve Vigil period that caught the adults attention.   I hope to see you at the join Ordeal.

[Oldscout448]

In the words of a friend who has been on the lodge vigil committee for decades "You are a vigil when you do what a vigil does, hopefully the chapter/lodge recognises it and gives you a sash with a triangle on it. If not,carry on.

[jpstodwftexas]

I believe we did it right...

 

Our Ordeals went something like this..

Friday Night Check in 7 pm check in Candidates...Sunset Pre Ordeal Ceremony.. Stake out.. Friday Night Cracker Barrel....for members Spades and Dominoes Tournaments (Youth and Adults)....and Vigil Ordeal

 

Saturday

5 am Candidate Breakfast ( Raw Egg, 2 Slices pint of Milk, 1 Match and a sheet of Tin Foil)/ Vigil Ceremony

6am Saturday Steak Vigil Breakfast

7am Everyone else Breakfast

8 am Work Project

12 Noon Lunch Candidates first ( 2 Slices of Bread and a Slice of Baloney...Water only) everyone else nice lunch.

1 pm Work Details..

5 Pm Dinner Candidates first ( 2 Slices of Bread and a Slice of Baloney...Water Only)....everyone Else nice Dinner

6 pm-Sunset ...candidate Meditation/lodge Orientation (History of OA and Lodge,  ..Lodge Members free time Spades and Dominoes. Brotherhood Candidates review and testing . Sunset Candidates Stake out again...Brotherhood Ceremony...Free Time for Non eligible Members

Sunday

5 am Candidate Breakfast ( Same as Saturday)

6am Vigil and New Brotherhood  Steak breakfast

7 am Everyone Else Breakfast

8 am Church

9 am Work projects

12 Noon Lunch Candidates first..(4 Slices of Bread 2 Slices of Baloney)..everyone else nice Lunch

1 PM Work projects...

4 pm Work Stop ...Everyone...(Open Swim in Summer for an Hour)...followed By Showers >>>EVERYONE

5 Pm Ordeal Ceremony

7ish...Dinner New Ordeal Members first....( 2 Baloney Sandwiches for Show)...Steak Dinner for New Members (including  Baked Potatoes, Red Beans, Salad, Iced Tea, and Cherry Cobbler and Ice Cream and a mess of other Goodies) ..seconds of New Members...

8ish...Lodge Business...New Vigils announced, New Brotherhood Announced, New Ordeals Announced and received lodge Flap. Awards for Spades and Dominoes....lodge Elections were done at Winter Ordeal since it got Darker sooner..so times were adjusted for earlier Sunset,

9ish Cleaning up and Went home

 

We had a fellowship once a month..Be it a Camp out, Movie, Pizza Party..or Work Projects...Lodge Dancers made every Campfire in Regalia and Closing Camp Fire at all Council events

We averaged 50 Youth at every activity....And about as many Adults.

We never read from Books

Our Lodge Flap was a 1 in Lifetime

Edited April 9, 2016 by jpstodwftexas

[Oldscout448]

Would have counted it an honor and privilege to have been there as well. We memorized all but vigil as well, as none but chapter chiefs were awarded that distinction in our neck of the woods

Edited April 10, 2016 by Oldscout448

[jpstodwftexas]

my lodge has never had chapters

[JosephMD]

Wow, the internet is small.  I am the chapter adviser for the chapter that cancelled. (is that word spelled with one L or two?  I can never remember and they both spell check)

@@Oldscout448 and I had a conversation later

 

I'm zealous for letting the youth run their organization, and the chief made the call to cancel.  Not a call I agreed with, but it was made.

 

Communication was difficult, as, I was camping with my unit that day, as was the chief.  The sad thing was that we were just on the other side of the property where the call out was happening. 

 

Lets go back.  My assessment is that the problem originated several weeks earlier at an ordeal planning meeting.  Chief & Ceremonies chief weren't there, and when the idea was floated by the other chapter, I may have over stepped and volunteered them.  Even though they got on board, I'm not sure the chapter leadership as a whole really were, but some times, even when trying to let them run it, as adults we can be overly suggestive. 

 

A few days before, there was an e-mail exchange, yeah yeah, email exchange always leads to something bad, but, the chief had suggested cancelling, my response was something like, you should work that out with the other chapter.  I think the chief's understanding was that he had cancelled, but it went no further.

 

On the day, I was camping with my son's unit as they needed a second adult.  I wondered down the trail and to my surprise, the chief was camping with his unit.  I had the conversation with him, is the call out cancelled?  His response, yes.  I was not really in a position to get the word out, so I called an associate adviser to help which ended up being an e-mail a couple of hours before saying it was cancelled. 

 

My son, is on the team, so I was able to get the word to him, the chief is on the team, so, obviously he was aware.  What they didn't know was that it was still happening.  I'd bet a paycheck that they'd have run right over if they were aware of the difficulties just a couple hundred yards down the trail.

 

So, why this scheduling failure?  Well, usually, at least for as long as I could remember, there would be a district camporee that weekend in march, and many units have that weekend blocked in their calendar for camping.  The district camporee was moved to April, one week before the ordeal, which, made having a surprise call out kind of difficult.

 

Some more history, the two chapters were once one, and we still have joint ordeals and have worked together on other things, so, it is not like we are strangers.

 

What I have taken away:

 

I should start referring commitments to the chief or his designee for that program and be careful not to make it seem like I am volunteering the chapter for something.  I should stop assuming that I am on the same page as my chief and follow up when things are not crystal clear.  And I should continue to work with the other advisers and make sure that decisions having impact to other chapters, area, lodge, or even other program areas within the chapter are communicated and received.

 

I'm happy to say that the chapter ceremonies chief changed his mind and accepted the role again for another year!  After that incident, I think some lessons were learned and the team seemed to shake off that loss, regroup, put on a great call out at the camporee and continued to work well together through the ceremonies at our spring ordeal a few weeks ago!

 

@@Oldscout448 - I'm not sure I can thank you enough for your dedication to the chapter's ceremonies team and beyond.

 

@@hendrickms24 - I look forward to working with you as my counterpart from the other side of the county (you know where I live now!)

[sst3rd]

For years, our lodge has had a difficult time staffing Call-Out ceremony teams for our summer camp Friday night closing campfires. Summer camp staff would appoint someone to head up the ceremony using old half baked ceremony outfits, practice a short ceremony, and then perform a really lousy Call-Out in front of the whole camp. Last year,our lodge tried to bring back an old tradition of having each chapter ceremony team perform a Call-Out each Friday night at summer camp. We weren't asked. We were told. And very short notice was given. The lodge wanted us to use their ceremony and outfits, but all they had were shirts. As current chapter ceremony committee advisor, I advised our team to stay away from this "invitation", but was told by our chapter advisor to please give it a go. I had our chapter ceremony chief to pick a Friday to perform, set up practices, and recruit. They chose the first week of summer camp to perform. They did a great job, and I was extremely proud of their efforts and told them so (as I was their that Friday night to support them). The next five weeks, I was told by a summer camp staffer I trust, the Call-Out ceremonies were bad. The other chapter teams didn't have the ceremony memorized, and were reading it from the back of shields with flashlights.

 

I was told that the lodge doesn't want to risk problems this coming year, and simply wants the chapters to give them our ceremony team members. They will train them, practice them, and outfit them (I don't know with what). They will mold them into what they want.

 

You may be asking, where is the lodge ceremony team???? They only perform at the service (ordeal) weekends, conclaves, and special events. The lodge can't seem to get any of them out to summer camp on Fridays. So, the chapters have to pick up the slack. I talked to our chapter team about the change for this upcoming year, and they weren't interested. They wanted our chapter team to do what they did the year before and not be under the lodges control. We did a great job last year. Great outfits, flute music, drums, torches; maybe we had set the bar too high for the other chapter teams, but we don't know. We simply did our best. And yes, I include myself in this, as I didn't have to get involved. The scouts wanted me to support them and I did. Wonder what the lodge will do?

 

 So, how does your summer camp organize its camp OA Call-Out ceremonies. Do you have the summer camp staff perform, lodge team perform, or maybe chapter teams perform? Just asking.

 

sst3rd

[JosephMD]

I was told that the lodge doesn't want to risk problems this coming year, and simply wants the chapters to give them our ceremony team members. They will train them, practice them, and outfit them (I don't know with what). They will mold them into what they want.

 

 So, how does your summer camp organize its camp OA Call-Out ceremonies. Do you have the summer camp staff perform, lodge team perform, or maybe chapter teams perform? Just asking.

 

sst3rd

 

I don't think our lodge does OA Call-Out ceremonies at summer camp.  They are generally done at district spring camporees or district campfires, by chapter ceremonies teams.

 

Different chapters will have different levels of involvement, and it will come and go depending on the chapter.  I think it was good for your team to do this job for your lodge if they wanted to do it.  The lodge can't force them to.  If they want to do it again, they should work with the lodge to figure out a solution that works for everyone.  It seems that the lodge really wants a quality ceremony and they didn't get that last year.  Someone probably thought that the way to fix it was to have a one size fits all top down solution under strict supervision.  That could work, but it isn't the only way.  Perhaps your team can take them up on their offer, but as a team, not as individuals, and show the lodge committee running this what they can do and how they'll do it, maybe even take a few suggestions form the lodge on elements they would like to see included or done a certain way.  If all goes well, request the date when your chapter has the most district units at camp.  One thing to consider ... your team may be asked to train other teams, perform multiple dates, and / or run the committee next year! 

[Krampus]

 So, how does your summer camp organize its camp OA Call-Out ceremonies. Do you have the summer camp staff perform, lodge team perform, or maybe chapter teams perform? Just asking.

 

 

District has a ceremonial team. They are ok. The process they use for call outs --  done at spring camporee -- takes forever....over two hours!!! 

 

Out unit has done what my cousin's unit has done. We formed our own ceremonial team. We do our own tap out. We then send our guys to the chapter ordeal.

 

Last camporee, not a single one of our guys wanted to get tapped out by the district folks. They had already had the unit ceremony which they said was more important to them.

[Stosh]

No up to code on this, but why can't the OA Rep "tap out" the boys in the troop and send them off for ordeal?

[Krampus]

No up to code on this, but why can't the OA Rep "tap out" the boys in the troop and send them off for ordeal?

 

I don't know that he can't. We just put together our own ceremonial unit for tap outs because the guys wanted to do it. They were tired of going to camporee (saw it as a waste of time for a long time) and simply wanted to offer this service. They also do crossovers.

 

As far as I know you only need to be elected to attend ordeal. Tap out is not required...at least where I live.

[sst3rd]

JosephMD,

 

    Good points all. Our summer camp has a staff position that deals with all camp OA stuff. It's usually an older scout in high school or moving on to college. There's an adult staff position that advises him. Both of these people last year had power trips. Their way or the highway with complete control. But no chapter ceremony teams wanted to work under those conditions, so nobody volunteered. Begrudgingly, 5 chapter teams gave it a go. We were the first up, and evidently did a great job. The others, not so much. As I mentioned before, all members of the lodge ceremony team were no shows. I know it's a long way off, but none of the chapters are interested this year either, and since the lodge wants individuals from chapter ceremony teams, well good luck with that.

 

Krampus,

 

 Our district has quite a few units that have their own ceremony teams for their own call-outs, crossovers, and AOL ceremonies. Our chapter keeps its team ready for those troops and packs that aren't so fortunate.

.

 

sst3rd

[Krampus]

 

Krampus,

 

 Our district has quite a few units that have their own ceremony teams for their own call-outs, crossovers, and AOL ceremonies. Our chapter keeps its team ready for those troops and packs that aren't so fortunate.

 

Interesting. Apparently in my neck of the woods it is considered heresy.

 

We don't care, we keep doing it and the packs like it, as does our unit. If there's no rule against it we will keep doing it.