Eagle Scout Service Project Approvals Set Precedent?

[Stosh]

It sounds like a great service project and very worth while.  

 

As for an eagle project, I don't know either way.  That would be something for the specific district to consider.  

 

A key point though is there is a difference between an Eagle project and a service project.  Both can be very worthwhile and meaningful.  But there is a difference.

 

@@fred johnson Using the Eagle Rank Requirement, please help me to understand.  I highlighted the parts that concern me.

 

While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service

project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The

project must benefit an organization other than the Boy Scouts of America.)

A project proposal must be approved by the organization benefiting from

the effort, your Scoutmaster and unit committee, and the council or district

before you start. You must use the

Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook

, BSA

publication No. 512-927, in meeting this requirement. (To learn more about

the Eagle Scout service project, see the

Guide to Advancement

, topics 9.0.2.0

through 9.0.2.16.)

 

Other than adding to the requirement, what addition must an Eagle project have that a clearly stated "service project" is lacking?  I have often wondered where this mythical Eagle Project is to be some grandiose project of extreme importance that simply showing leadership running a service project gets lost along the way.

[fred johnson]

 

@@fred johnson Using the Eagle Rank Requirement, please help me to understand.  I highlighted the parts that concern me.

 

While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service

project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The

project must benefit an organization other than the Boy Scouts of America.)

A project proposal must be approved by the organization benefiting from

the effort, your Scoutmaster and unit committee, and the council or district

before you start. You must use the

Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook

, BSA

publication No. 512-927, in meeting this requirement. (To learn more about

the Eagle Scout service project, see the

Guide to Advancement

, topics 9.0.2.0

through 9.0.2.16.)

 

Other than adding to the requirement, what addition must an Eagle project have that a clearly stated "service project" is lacking?  I have often wondered where this mythical Eagle Project is to be some grandiose project of extreme importance that simply showing leadership running a service project gets lost along the way.

 

 

"Plan, develop" is elaborated and clarified in BSA Guide To Advancement.  section 9.0.2.3

 

I agree that not approving a project should be rare, but there are cases where they should not be approved.  

 

 

"9.0.2.3 “Plan, Develop …â€

 

"Planning and development require forethought, effort, and time—sometimes more than for execution. Thus, for the most part, they are considered part of the project and are detailed further once a proposal is approved. It is inappropriate to expect a Scout to invest the time required for detailed planning, only to face the prospect of rejection. See “Proposal Must Be Approved … Before You Start,†9.0.2.7.

 

"It is important not to categorically reject projects that, on the surface, may not seem to require enough planning and development. Consider, for example, a blood drive. Often rejected out of hand, this project, if done properly, could be acceptable. Few would question the beneficiary. Blood banks save lives—thousands of them: maybe yours, maybe that of a loved one. If the candidate proposes to use a set of “canned†instructions from the bank, implemented with no further planning, the planning effort would not meet the test.

 

"On the other hand, there are councils in which Scouts and advancement committees have met with blood bank officials and worked out approaches that can comply. Typically these involve developing marketing plans and considering logistics. People successful in business know how important these skills are. Some blood banks will also set a minimum for blood collected as a measure of a successful plan. To provide another valuable lesson, they may require the candidate to keep at it until he’s met this goal.

 

"A good test of any project is to evaluate its complexity. In the case of a blood drive, for example, elements of challenge and complexity can be added so there is a clear demonstration of planning, development, and leadership."

[Stosh]

Plan and develop is the easy part for my boys.   As a matter of fact, once the scope of the project is defined it is left entirely up the boys how they want to do it as long as they produce the appropriate results.  I have had 2 different boys from two different troops do it two different ways and the results were the same.  There was even more planning and  developmental structure than a blood drive which is pretty standard. 

 

This is how it works. 

 

1) Research "Find a Grave"

2) Here's a list of soldiers' graves

3) Here's the cemetery

4) Here's what the VA needs to have done

5) Here's what the Archives need to have done.

6) Any questions call me 24/7.

 

1) The boys needed to figure how what Find a Grave was and how it worked; why it was important; and how it is updated.  A system would be needed to do that. A developed plan was necessary for that and work with the WebMaster and his people to get it done.

2) Identify the soldiers on the listing and become familiar with how the cemetery works and is lad out.  That means working with the cemetery sextant..

3) Locate the cemetery, get a map of it's layout and get a team together to develop a plan to break down the work into small groups so the boys can best efficiently cover all the graves in the most effective use of time.

4) Have a written report developed from collected information to pass on to the VA for further evaluation written evaluations locations and photographs to support the work done.  Make application for the grave stones needed to be replaced.

5) provide the necessary information to the library archives for their records.

6) turn over copies of the survey to local historian, historical society and genealogy society and any other interested party.

 

Remember, this process has never been done before, you will need to plan and develop it from day one with full knowledge that this is to be a team effort, not just something you will do on your own.    Key people you will be working with  1) Troop Webmaster, 2) Administrator of the Veteran's Administration, 3) Stosh in his role as historian (NOT SM), 4) the library archivist and 5) the Sextant of the Cemetery.  Others who will be interested in working with you might include the County Historical Society and the County Genealogy Society.

 

So, he has to plan from scratch the entire project, develop totally new plans to accomplish the tasks, work with troop officers, with scout crews to conduct the survey and work with at least 5-6 community organizations and individuals to disseminate the information appropriately.

 

I have yet to go to a blood drive event where the processes, plans etc. aren't  already set up by the organization and the only work the boy does is staff the volunteers.  

 

One of the problems behind the approval process is the lack of knowledge behind some of these projects.  It doesn't take much knowledge to know what a boy means to make picnic tables for the local park or to work a blood drive, or plant some trees, or clear  trail, but surveying a cemetery sounds pretty lame on the surface.

[Krampus]

Other than adding to the requirement, what addition must an Eagle project have that a clearly stated "service project" is lacking?  I have often wondered where this mythical Eagle Project is to be some grandiose project of extreme importance that simply showing leadership running a service project gets lost along the way.

 

 

For me the litmus test is somewhere between impact (on the organization or community) and level of effort. Like the blood drive example possibly being too little effort, the same could be said for food or clothing drives. If you only collect 20 items is that good enough? Is 100 good enough? A 1000?

 

While BSA does not give exact guidelines here I think there is a reasonableness test you can apply. I'd even argue that the age and capability of a Scout might be taken in to consideration. An Autistic Scout might do an otherwise lesser project but well within (or preferred, just beyond) his capabilities.

 

I agree that the scope of the project should not be the guiding principle as to a project's success, but rather the leadership demonstrated. That is, after all, what Requirement #5 is about.

[fred johnson]

Plan and develop is the easy part for my boys.   ...

 

Sounds good.  Each project needs to be considered on it's own.  How you explain it sounds reasonable.  

 

I've seen some that are little more than project 1 of 3 followed by project 2 of 3 followed by project 3 of 3.  That's a red flag.  

[fred johnson]

I think we are all discussing small nuances or viewing the same challenge from different perspectives. We're discussing terms versus a difference of fundamentals.
 

For me the litmus test is somewhere between impact (on the organization or community) and level of effort. Like the blood drive example possibly being too little effort, the same could be said for food or clothing drives. If you only collect 20 items is that good enough? Is 100 good enough? A 1000?

 
The issue with blood drive is not at all about effort ... unless you mean there is little effort to plan and develop.  Most blood drives are hundreds of hours.  But, if it is hundreds of hours, how much planning does the scout do?  For a blood drive, probably not much as almost everything is provided including processes and procedures.  The issue with blood drives is the planning and develop. 
 
In addition, it's an issue of leadership.  Scout's can't really lead blood drives.  If the scout wanted his project to be associated with the blood drive, I'd be looking for him to write the proposal as such.  "I will be developing a marketing campaign to ... ??? draw in first time donors ... ??? solicit new organizations ... ??? young people who have never donated ???".  Or, I will ????  I would not want the Eagle project to be called a "blood drive" as that is outside and beyond his control.  Essentially, "blood drive" would be claiming credit for another's leadership and planning.  "Running a marketing campaign for a blood drive" would more accurately reflect an acceptable project. 

 

While BSA does not give exact guidelines here I think there is a reasonableness test you can apply. I'd even argue that the age and capability of a Scout might be taken in to consideration. An Autistic Scout might do an otherwise lesser project but well within (or preferred, just beyond) his capabilities.

Absolutely. I use the rule of thumb that it should be a slight stretch or challenge. IMHO, there is a different expectation for a 13 year old versus a 17 year old and different than a scout with a disability. It's not exactly "do your best" as much as stretch your best.

 

I agree that the scope of the project should not be the guiding principle as to a project's success, but rather the leadership demonstrated. That is, after all, what Requirement #5 is about.

Leadership yes. But the planning and development is also a key guiding principle. IMHO, if there is leadership without the need for planning or development, then it's more of a normal service project and not so much an Eagle service project. Essentially, providing labor versus conceiving and developing your own project.

Edited March 29, 2016 by fred johnson

[Krampus]

Leadership yes. But the planning and development is also a key guiding principle. IMHO, if there is leadership without the need for planning or development, then it's more of a normal service project and not so much an Eagle service project. Essentially, providing labor versus conceiving and developing your own project.

 

I agree. However, I think BSA's process (merely getting the proposal approved and not the project plan itself prior to execution) does a disservice to the Scout. They'd get more out of the project planning and approval process by working to get the project plan approved before beginning work.

[Stosh]

A scout could go out and survey the cemetery, come home, enter the data in Find a Grave, go down to the VA and fill out the new stone applications that needed replacement, drop off a copy of his findings at the library and turn over another copy for me, the historian and have a well planned, and developed process, but have absolutely no need for leadership.  Fantastic organizational task management, just zero leadership.  Developing a blood drive marketing strategy could fall into this same snake pit.  Same for the boy and his dad finishing up the last 2 picnic tables at the park by themselves.

 

Then there's the scout that tells his buddies to show up at the park at such and such a time, tells them to grab some gloves and safety glasses out of the back of the pickup and a tool of their liking, rake, shovel, saw, whatever, and let head down to the trail head.  There he tells them they need to clear everything back 5' on each side of the trail and dump it back deeper in the woods.  The last guy through makes sure everything is looking good.  When they get to the other end of the trail his dad is doing up burgers for lunch.  Don't horse around and miss out on the goodies.

 

Now, both took planning and developing, but which one showed leadership?     I don't think some of these Eagle projects need to be all that elaborate that most adults would find a challenge to put together.  Meaningful and worthwhile?  Yes, but extravagant and complicated?  Not necessary. 

 

I grew up in a world of Eagle scouts that didn't need this grandiose project hoop to jump through and they were in their own right some pretty good Eagle Scouts.  The project doesn't make the Eagle, but some of these projects keep good scouts from becoming Eagles.

[desertrat77]

 

I grew up in a world of Eagle scouts that didn't need this grandiose project hoop to jump through and they were in their own right some pretty good Eagle Scouts.  The project doesn't make the Eagle, but some of these projects keep good scouts from becoming Eagles.

 

This is right on the money.

[RememberSchiff]

 

I grew up in a world of Eagle scouts that didn't need this grandiose project hoop to jump through and they were in their own right some pretty good Eagle Scouts.  The project doesn't make the Eagle, but some of these projects keep good scouts from becoming Eagles.

 

This. Fundraising? No, you EARNED money from your own labor, not selling crap, or begging in front of stores or online. Shoveling snow, mowing lawns, raking leaves, paper routes, painting,..So now you had some dollars in YOUR savings account at the town bank and it even earned interest back then.  Hmmm what HELPFUL Eagle project could I do with x dollars out of my savings account? THRIFTY. Then the planning began, keep it within your budget or try something else. No Eagle Advisor as by now you should have the know-how having planned hikes and campouts. Schedule, purchase materials, recruit help if needed, get er done. It was more similar to your Dad's weekend DIY home project albeit for the community than the government-like Eagle projects today.

 

Simple, thrifty, and your own Eagle project.

 

My $0.01

[Krampus]

I grew up in a world of Eagle scouts that didn't need this grandiose project hoop to jump through and they were in their own right some pretty good Eagle Scouts.  The project doesn't make the Eagle, but some of these projects keep good scouts from becoming Eagles.

 

Good point.

 

So, for those who are older and were actually in Scouting during these times, what were the requirements around the Eagle project? How did they differ from today?

[Stosh]

When I was a scout the project requirement didn't exist,  That would make it quite a bit different.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Stosh

[desertrat77]

Late '70s:  you talked to the SM about your concept and he approved it.  (The troop committee might have had some role in it, I can't recall.)   Scout organized and executed the project.   Afterwards, the scout wrote a paper about the project (no set format).   The paper was submitted along with the Eagle application to council.  

[RememberSchiff]

Yeah 60/70's. The main emphasis was it was YOUR project start to finish. You were not helping with some existing service. There was no template, workbook, advisor nor was there any need. As desertrat77 stated, paperwork was minimal but your paper had to be neat and legible.

 

There was no requirement that you lead others, the labor could be performed by the scout himself. Your service to the community and your work ethic were key.

 

With permission, I used power tools on site just as I did at home and school. Job site preparation, safety, and cleanup were questions asked at my board. Adult labor was minimal as in driving.

 

P.S. I forgot, I also used ladders. I doubt my project would be approved today. Too many no-no's.

Edited March 30, 2016 by RememberSchiff

[Krampus]

@@desertrat77, @@RememberSchiff, @@Stosh...thanks for the replies.

 

@@Stosh, did you get Lincoln to sign your Eagle certificate? Or what it Johnson?