Outpost Camping and Other Questions

[Eagle94-A1]

So, I'm reviewing stuff, and on this site http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss03.aspxit says that 12 years olds can do Outpost Camping.

 

1) Why separate Boy Scouts into 11 and 12 year olds?

1a) What about the 10 year old Boy Scouts?

 

2) What the heck is "Outpost Camping"

 

On this site, http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416_Insert_Web.pdf, it states that Bears can  cook in the outdoors, but they can't build a fire or used fueled devices like stoves. So..

 

3) How they heck are they suppose to cook?

 

And if survival training is part of CASTAWAY...

 

4) How the Heck are Webelos  suppose to earn CASTAWAY if they cannot build fires, nor use them for signalling purposes?

 

Other questions

 

5) If Wolves and Bears can use a map and compass, then  why does it say they  can't they go orienteering lower on the chart?

 

6) they can do pioneering bridges and towers, but not other pioneering projects?

 

Regarding Boy Scouts:

 

7) All Boy Scouts can do Search and Rescue Practice, but only older Scouts, Sea Scouts, and Venturers can do actual missions?

 

One question, and I like that it is allowed

 

8) When did Webelos get to use bow saws?

 

@@RichardB,  I know you have a hand in writing these and you have some field experience at the unit level. But do the others who write this have experience in the field? Some of these guidelines do not make sense.

 

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

It is comical document. I wonder if Bears can **** in the woods?

 

The "Outpost camping" that I know is a optional program feature at scout camp. A troop backpacks from its campsite to a more rustic site inside the camp (within "outpost") for overnight "camping". Before leaving, they draw food from the mess hall and cook dinner and breakfast before returning the next morning for the regular summer camp activities. Never encountered age restrictions. Could be a "patrol" outing at some camps if enough adults are avilable.

[Eagle94-A1]

Sad thing is, you got folks who will look at part of the document, without reading the entire thing. And it is confusing. We did orienteering courses at day camp, and the cubs loved it. When we did geocaching with the Webelos in December, we also threw in "old school geocaching:" orienteering. Again the Webelos loved. it.

 

Maybe I should call  the orienteering course a 'map and compass" course?

[Hedgehog]

So, I'm reviewing stuff, and on this site http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss03.aspxit says that 12 years olds can do Outpost Camping.

 

1) Why separate Boy Scouts into 11 and 12 year olds?

 

The 12 Year Olds can attend Jamborees, thus there needs to be a distinction.

 

1a) What about the 10 year old Boy Scouts?

 

Too complicated to show on the chart.

 

2) What the heck is "Outpost Camping"

 

Remember Schiff's anwer makes sense.  I've also heard Outpost Camping to be wilderness survival type activities.  I have no idea why there is an age limitation.

 

On this site, http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416_Insert_Web.pdf, it states that Bears can  cook in the outdoors, but they can't build a fire or used fueled devices like stoves. So..

 

3) How they heck are they suppose to cook?

 

The requirement is "help" cook.  The adult should start the fire and light the stove.

 

And if survival training is part of CASTAWAY...

 

4) How the Heck are Webelos  suppose to earn CASTAWAY if they cannot build fires, nor use them for signalling purposes?

 

Again, the requirement is to build a fire with an adult.

 

Other questions

 

5) If Wolves and Bears can use a map and compass, then  why does it say they  can't they go orienteering lower on the chart?

 

Orienteering typically is done with pairs of scouts.  Wolves and Bears need to have an adult with them.

 

6) they can do pioneering bridges and towers, but not other pioneering projects?

 

That one doesn't make sense.  Maybe they can climb on them but not build them.

 

Regarding Boy Scouts:

 

7) All Boy Scouts can do Search and Rescue Practice, but only older Scouts, Sea Scouts, and Venturers can do actual missions?

 

Probably not a requirement, but a guideline -- you don't want a 12 year old on a search and rescue.  

 

One question, and I like that it is allowed

 

8) When did Webelos get to use bow saws?

 

I always thoght it was just knives.

 

My suggestion is to go by G2SS and ignore the charts and suggestions.  G2SS controls.

[MattR]

It is comical document. I wonder if Bears can **** in the woods?

 

The "Outpost camping" that I know is a optional program feature at scout camp. A troop backpacks from its campsite to a more rustic site inside the camp (within "outpost") for overnight "camping". Before leaving, they draw food from the mess hall and cook dinner and breakfast before returning the next morning for the regular summer camp activities. Never encountered age restrictions. Could be a "patrol" outing at some camps if enough adults are avilable.

But a boy scout can go backpacking, so what's wrong with outpost camping? Well, let's look it up in the g2ss. Oops, this is the g2ss. Hmm, well, the word outpost isn't on that webpage except in that graph. The graph also suggests, in the right most column, that wilderness back country is limited to 14 and older. Backpacking is also only mentioned in the context of high adventure, 14+. So I guess backpacking is no longer allowed in boy scouts?

 

Or maybe this whole page should just be ignored.

[Eagle94-A1]

If Backpacking is limited to 14+, then my troop is in trouble. Troop is doing a 50 miler on the AT instead of Philmont due to leadership issues. We couldn't get enough leaders to go to Philmont this year.

 

But we now have an ASM heading up the AT trek only because his 12 year old can do the AT, but not Philmont. 12 year old is looking forward to redoing that section of the AT again. It's been 3 years since he did it.

 

 

EDITED: Just noticed that  Wilderness and Backcountry is limited to 14+.  Where are we suppose to go camping, only at Scout camps?  Why do I think the folks who wrote these guidelines were either A) Never in Scouts or B) In Scouts in the 1970s when they took the OUTING out of ScOUTING.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Eagle94-A1

[CalicoPenn]

 

EDITED: ..... B) In Scouts in the 1970s when they took the OUTING out of ScOUTING.

I am so sick and tired of this meme - this statement that the BSA took the "Outing of of Scouting" in the 1970's. What, exaclty, does that mean?

 

I was a Scout in the 1970's - my unit camped or hiked once a month, without fail. We had backpacking trips to Isle Royale and the Porcupines, canoeing trips to The Boundary Waters, white-water rafting trips down the Wolf River and bicycle treks in Brown County, Indiana. Patrols went camping on their own.

 

There wasn't a unit in our suburban Chicago council that didn't regularly go camping or hiking.

 

There isn't anyone I know who was a Boy Scout in the 1970's that feel deprived of the Outings in Scouting.

 

The BSA got a lot of flack from some of the 1950's and 1960's traditionalists (aka dinosaurs) who were upset that the BSA was trying to make their program more appealing to urban and suburban youth. Why, whatever happened to hopping on the train with all your gear and hopping off at the rural end of the line to go find a campsite? (Umm - suburbs happened). Why was the BSA trying to appeal more to urban and suburban youth? Simple answer - that's where the boys were (and still are). By the 1960's, 60% of Americans were living in cities and suburbs - you'd be a darn fool not to learn that statistic and read the handwriting on the wall - adapt or die.

 

The emphasis in the Boy Scout handbook certainly changed - but I would argue in a good way - it more evenly balanced out the skills of the outdoors with the skills needed for good citizenship. There was still plenty of outing in the BSA handbook but it started to accept that a 5-mile hike along the Lake Michigan lake front trail in full view of high rises and skyscrapers was still a 5-mile hike.

 

If anything, what the BSA did in the 1970's was de-emphasis the rural but you don't get a cute meme with "The BSA took the Rural out of Scouting". Gone were such merit badges as hog production, sheep farming, beef production, dairying, and poultry keeping - all replaced by a single merit badge - animal science. Gone were corn farming, cotton farming, forage crops, fruit & nut farming and small grains - all replaced by a single merit badge - plant science. 1952 was a brutal year for merit badges - more merit badges were discontinued and not replaced in 1952 than were discontinued and not replaced in the 1970's. The only merit badge that was discontinued and not replaced in the 1970's was Citizenship in the Home, and that was eventually replaced by family life in 1992.

 

Boys Life was full of articles about the outdoors. Scout-o-Rama ticket sales prizes were almost all out door oriented - the top prizes were backpacks, sleeping bags and tents.

 

If anyone took the Outing out of Scouting in the 1970's, it wasn't the BSA - it was individual units.

Edited March 20, 2016 by CalicoPenn

[Eagle94-A1]

Camping of any sort was not required in order to earn Eagle from 1972-1979.

 

Pages 79 - 91 of the 1972 handbook shows the requirements, and Camping Skill Award nor Camping MB is required.

 

Tenderfoot required Citizenship Skill Award, an elective Skill Award, and 1 MB

Second Class required 3 additional Skill Awards, and 2 MBs.

First Class required 3 additional Skill Awards and 2 MBs. That for a total of 5 MBs which 2 had to be Cit Com and First Aid.

Star Required  a Scout to have total of 9 MBs which an additional 2 had to be Eagle Required.

Life required 15 total MBs with7 Eagle required

 

And of Course Eagle required 24 MBs with the following required:

 

         First Aid

         Cit Com

          Cit Nat

           Cit World

           Communications

           Safety

         Emergency Prep

         Env. Sci

         Personal Management OR Personal Fitness OR Swimming OR Sports

      

Notice Camping is missing?

 

While the book does contain some information on camping, it is not as extensive as previous editions, nor GBB's 1979 edition.  My brothers, when they transfered troops do to a move, the troop didn't camp, and they left.  My cousin, who is an Eagle, does not remember camping as much as his son's troop did. Nor did his troop ever do OA elections ( he didn't know a thing about the OA until I became a member and talked about it.)

 

Yep he became an Eagle in the 1970s.

 

While not every unit took the outing out of Scouting, my troop certainly didn't, it was usually those units with established leaders prior to tyhe ISP that had the outdoor program.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Eagle94-A1

[Hedgehog]

The graph also suggests, in the right most column, that wilderness back country is limited to 14 and older. Backpacking is also only mentioned in the context of high adventure, 14+. So I guess backpacking is no longer allowed in boy scouts?

Or maybe this whole page should just be ignored.

 

Bizzare.  I've never paid much attention to that graph -- sort of figured that it was a guide to the types of activities that make sense for various age groups.  I'm voting for ignoring it.

 

If Backpacking is limited to 14+, then my troop is in trouble. Troop is doing a 50 miler on the AT instead of Philmont due to leadership issues. We couldn't get enough leaders to go to Philmont this year.

 

But we now have an ASM heading up the AT trek only because his 12 year old can do the AT, but not Philmont. 12 year old is looking forward to redoing that section of the AT again. It's been 3 years since he did it.

 

 

EDITED: Just noticed that  Wilderness and Backcountry is limited to 14+.  Where are we suppose to go camping, only at Scout camps?  Why do I think the folks who wrote these guidelines were either A) Never in Scouts or B) In Scouts in the 1970s when they took the OUTING out of ScOUTING.

 

Well, my son earned his 50 miler award for backpacing 54 miles in the backcountry when he had just turned 13 last summer and earned his backpacking merit badge in the fall.  Nobody told me that he couldn't do that.     

 

 

Nonetheless, I'm too busy putting the OUTING back in ScOUTING for my unit -- going camping with hiking, fishing, mountain biking in April, camping with horseback riding in May, spending a day sailing and boating in June, doing a 20 mile AT trek into summer camp in July, spending a week at summer camp, doing a 5 day - 30 mile backpacking trek later in the summer, camping and whitewater rafting and beach camping -- and the boys haven't planned November and December's actiivites yet.  Now I'm working on doing a Wilderness Survival training and campout for the older guys (9th grade and up) in our Troop and maybe for another local Troop.

[Eagle94-A1]

I'd include Webelos for Wilderness Survival, but do go easy on them. . #1 It can help them meet CASTAWAY ADVENTURE.(caps emphasis)  #2 WILDERNESS SURVIVAL IS THE BEST RECRUITING TOOL I HAVE EVER ENCOUNTERED IN 30+ YEARS IN SCOUTING! ( caps emphasis, OK maybe a little shouting at the top of my longs to show enthusiasm )

 

Seriously, my a fluke my troop did a wilderness survival camp out, and everyone loved it. First time around, we had to improvise heavily as we found out the nite before our gear was destroyed or damaged, but we kept on doing it year after year.

 

I've suggested it to no only the troop I'm with, but also the Cub Scout pack's CO's troop multiple times. The leaders in the CO's troop think I'm nuts for suggesting it, but when I mentioned it to their Scouts last weekend, they think it's a good idea. My troop plans to do it in December, but with some district/council scheduling changes, 8 weeks without a camp out will cause  camping withdrawal. Going to mention the schedule changes and suggest they switch activities for November and December, and change dates,

[Hedgehog]

I'd include Webelos for Wilderness Survival, but do go easy on them. . #1 It can help them meet CASTAWAY ADVENTURE.(caps emphasis)  #2 WILDERNESS SURVIVAL IS THE BEST RECRUITING TOOL I HAVE EVER ENCOUNTERED IN 30+ YEARS IN SCOUTING! ( caps emphasis, OK maybe a little shouting at the top of my longs to show enthusiasm )

 

Was talking to my son who is a Den Chief for upcoming the Webelos 2 Den in the Pack about Castaway Adventure.  No better way for him to master it then to teach it.  Also, if he brings his buddies along, it really could be the start of the transition of that Den to begin boy-led.

[Eagle94-A1]

The way we did it was teach a class or two on the topic prior to the campout, depended upon the when we did it. (More years doing it, more time we prepped). At the camp out, we spend the morning building shelters. We did patrol shelters, but a few folks did individual ones. Afternoon was pioneering games ( which is apparently another no-no from national now). Eventually we added utensilless cooking. Although the first time we did it was aluminum cooking.

[DuctTape]

Age restrictions instead of competency perpetuates adult led trips with kids in tow. A better solution, although the insurance and legal dept at hq would shudder, would be to promote patrol camping with the PL truly in charge. With adults farther and farther away the more competent a Patrol and their PL, the more advanced the excursion will become. The boys' competencies in outdoor skills provide the boundaries instead of artifucially using age. If adults have concerns about a patrol's backpacking trip for example, there is no reason 2 scouters cannot hike and camp apart from the boys at a distance close enough for an emergency, but far enough away that the boys are unaware of the adult presence.

[Stosh]

So what if an emergency?  What are the adults going to do differently than what the boys properly trained can't do for themselves?  Age is irrelevant when it comes to knowledge.

 

This all just boils down to the fact that most adults still firmly believe their children are neither trustworthy nor responsible as an adult.  But then show me where being an adult guarantees trustworthiness and responsibility.

 

Parents don't want their children to grow up.  They hang on for dear life because someday they will leave them.  I've found that the tighter they try to hang on, the sooner they will leave.

[perdidochas]

So what if an emergency?  What are the adults going to do differently than what the boys properly trained can't do for themselves?  Age is irrelevant when it comes to knowledge.

 

This all just boils down to the fact that most adults still firmly believe their children are neither trustworthy nor responsible as an adult.  But then show me where being an adult guarantees trustworthiness and responsibility.

 

Parents don't want their children to grow up.  They hang on for dear life because someday they will leave them.  I've found that the tighter they try to hang on, the sooner they will leave.

 

Exactly.  I think  we as a society don't trust children enough. One of the benefits of Scouting should be that children (teenagers) should learn that adults can trust them.