Taking boys "Jeepin".

[jpstodwftexas]

I got a Simple rule about Activities..If you have to ask if something was prohibited or think it would conflict with BSA rules don't do it as a Scout Activity...When I was a Youth...at one point my Whole troop were also members of Red River Renegades...We shot Muzzleloaders, We carried Bowie Knives, We Threw Axes and Tomahawks...And when it came to Camporee time Everyone in the Council was always amazed that we stomped  all the other troops so badly in the Mountain Man events.

 

I am surprised that some rules lawyers have not jumped on how that would violate the "Leave No Trace" rules.

[John-in-KC]

All y'all are just begging RichardB to enter this fray and tell you NO, from Irving.

 

If I were a COR, and the SM/CC proposed this to me, the answer would be NO.

[Eagledad]

Times don't change. We had a young ASM in our troop during the late 60s who 4-wheeled a lot in a CJ5 before 4-wheeling was a thing to do. He would find a few trails on our campouts to challenge his Jeep, but the SM never let scouts ride with him. A few older scouts got to ride to the store with him now and then. We always wondered which road the ASM took to the store.

 

Barry

[qwazse]

... I am surprised that some rules lawyers have not jumped on how that would violate the "Leave No Trace" rules.

 

@@jpstodwftexas, my first reply included:

 

... Jeep with a purpose. Have the boys ...

• Talk to the ranger/property owner.
• Identify some potential conservation project.

 

Depending on the terrain, foot can be more damaging than motor traffic. A well-fueled vehicle can encourage boys to take the long way around and avoid ripping up sensitive areas.

 

Regarding the "If you're questioning yourself ..." argument, I generally agree that you might be asking for one more person to say "No" in your place.

But sometimes questioning yourself is a way of increasing the activities level of safety and benefit. For example, in advance of foul weather, we have a shake-down to review our next move. A "no go" decision is always on the table, but I'm not asking someone to make that for me. I'm asking

• what's our plans B, C, and (sometimes) D?
• Are we prepared to implement them?
• And, will they mitigate risk?

I would also think of it this way: if you were doing an activity, who are the boys whom you would trust to safely execute that activity? I might not want my scouts pulling out a football or Frisbee (the source of most camping-related fractures in my experience), but might want them tying down gear and equipment for a back-country conservation project.

Edited March 14, 2016 by qwazse

[Eagle94-A1]

One summer, we had two Navy corpsmen on TDY to summer camp as medical staff. One day they took the HMMWV to the back side of camp for a little "fun."  Not only did they tear up large tracks of land, they also flipped over the HMMWV. 

 

I didn't think you could flip a HMMWV over.

[Krampus]

 

I didn't think you could flip a HMMWV over.

 

Testosterone and bad judgement can flip ANYTHING!!!

[blw2]

.. About four-wheeling, he simply said, "There's a reason BSA does not offer four-wheeling. If ATVs are limited to council camps and professional tracks, then it is implied that four-wheeling is right out." He added, "....

 

I get the point

and my personal read is that this might follow  the letter of intent (not) written

but this sort of extrapolation bugs me

 

Scout patrols, in theory, can get together and do anything they want, right.... 

For example the guys might all want to get together to do some completely non-scouting activity once in awhile, just for fun....

athletes might shoot some hoops

any scouts might go see a movie

The older scouts might go rome the mall to view the local flora and fauna

techie scouts might want to play a little x-box

scouts might want to get together for a little mountain biking

or scouts from the country might all own ATV's and want to get together for a ride

 

all of these are more or less non-scout sanctioned activities, right?

 

and besides

it seems to me that with a bunch of level headed adults running the thing, what the OP is proposing seems almost infinitely safer than say a bike ride

assuming it's just tame jeep trails, speed is kept in a safe range, seat belts are worn, etc...

 

if it were me, I'd go with the non-scouting angle... just a bunch of friends.

But I'd still keep some extra level of safety in mind, just as I would YPT guidelines on such an event....

[RichardB]

So, the OP asks how would the GTSS apply?   One answer would be to read the preface:  http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS.aspx.   Specifically what does your common sense say?  In addition, if your common sense is different then I'd point you at the Activity Planning and Risk Assessment piece found here:     http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss08.aspx.  Finally, if you still think this might be a good idea you may wish to consult the age appropriate guidelines.   Many folks on this discussion have suggested that just saying no is the right answer once you know it is not a part of the Scouting program.    

 

Another way to look at this would be why would this be scouting?   Not a program of the BSA, no where to be found in the literature.   I'd also suggest that the way the OP hypothetical is set up, its a idea the adults had. Youth Run?    

 

Please review (Also in the GTSS) the commitment to safety:  http://www.scouting.org/Home/HealthandSafety/SafetyThoughts/1192016.aspx  Commit yourself to creating a safe and healthy environment by:

• Knowing and executing the BSA program as contained in our publications...

 

Finally, motor vehicle accidents lead the way in claims made and costs.  Just say no.   

[gumbymaster]

I don't agree with you. I don't think extrapolating from the go-kart and ATV rules is valid in this case. With go-kars and ATV's, they are driven by the scouts, and riding them is generally a high risk activity. That is different from riding as a passenger in an SUV on a dirt road. Can off-roading in an SUV be dangerous? Yes. But so can driving the family car to the local supermarket.

 

The other problem with assuming "four-wheeling" is not allowed is, what then is the actual rule? Scouts can't ride in a four wheel drive vehicle? Can't ride in a vehicle on an unpaved road? Can't cross a ford? Can't ride in a car if snow chains are required?

 

Is a "jeep" a one, two or four wheeled cart? In which case no one under the age of 14 can ride in one?

 

Common sense aside, I'm not sure the that road into the Camp I used to staff for wouldn't be prohibited if taken to these extremes - at least after a rain storm (admittedly not often) as many passenger vehicles that were not 4x4 might have problems.  I understand the road is not significantly different today.

 

Now, when we add into the mix the staff trying to break the "beach to camp" time record to be in camp "on-time" after weekend leave ... well that can be a whole different story.