HUGE Issue with Chartered Organization

[Prepared]

I have looked an looked and looked, to no avail. Therefor, I will post here in hopes of finding a resolution...here goes.

 

I am the Cubmaster for my son's pack, my wife is a Committee member. When we came onboard, we were informed that our CO is not helpful in any way and that our council has been informed about this, with nothing being done about it (from our former Cubmaster). We had personality issues with out former Cubmaster, so we chalked it up to their issue, not the CHURCH. My wife and I had a sit down meeting with the CO rep and the pastor to establish a relationship with them. Everything seemed fine, expect for the fact that we still cannot meet there (they have NA meet at the church the day we have our meeting, so meeting there with the NA people is out of the question). We talked with them about extra fund raising ideas, helping them with community service items, and storing stuff there (so we didn't have to spend almost $300 for a storage facility). They were really helpful, they agreed to sign off on us doing extra fund raising, they set us up with the SM of the Troop who meets there to do community service, the even (started) to allow us to store stuff there. On top of all the helpfulness, they let us have our Pinewood Derby there and saved us almost $200 (to have it at our school, which is where we have our meetings). Then everything started doing down hill at break-neck speed...

 

Shortly after allowing us to store stuff there, the CO rep started complaining to the SM about us having to go there to get stuff out of the shed and didn't want us going there over and over (mind you this is a shed outside, not inside).

 

The CO rep made a big deal about us being at the church for Pinewood derby after we went, and I just found out that she is asking us to get their whole carpet cleaned, because we supposedly spilled coffee on the floor. The thing about that was the SM was there (a member of the church) and another leader of the church was there, saw the stain and said that it may not have been us, so to not worry about it. The worse part about that is that we had to hear it from our CC, who we do not have a good relationship with and has a terrible relationship with the CO rep. We have no idea why the CO rep didn't talk to us directly if there was a problem and why they decided to talk to another person to tell us about it.

 

The CO rep acts perfect in front of the pastor, she is polite and agrees to everything we ask for (that they are supposed to help us with) when he is around. However, when it is just her everything changes. We get talked down to and treated poorly and basically treated like 4th class citizens to her.

 

My wife just told me she wants to move our son to another pack in our area and I pushed back because I am the CM and she is the treasurer...she basically said that she does not want to put our son through all the issues of being in this pack and even said she would just talk to all the parents and get them all the leave the pack (which I really feel most of the parents would do).

 

I am at a point where I really do not know what to do. I feel like I do not know who in my council to talk to, to get help. The CO is pushing us away. The CC is making more issues. So now with all the back story, here are my questions.

 

Can a pack drop their CO and move to another one?

 

Can something be done about a CO that refuses to assist the pack with a place to meet and causes more issues than being helpful?

 

Should I listen to my wife and leave the pack with one more year left to go for my son in the pack?

 

I am sorry for the long post and all the questions, but I really just don't know what to do.

Edited March 10, 2016 by David14

[Krampus]

Unless everyone moves to a new pack you'd be doing a disservice to the boys who don't go. As CM you have a responsibility to the boys. It sounds like you need to sit down with the pastor, the COR, the CC and talk.

No offense, but your wife is just one member of the committee. What does the rest of the committee think? What does the CC think? What does the pastor think?

 

I suspect it will be MUCH easier to sit down and work things out rather than to move, hurt the feelings of those who don't go and to make MORE problems.

[fred johnson]

Changing COs ... Packs change COs all the time.  You have to get the CO to write a short memo such as "<charter org> releases Pack <xxxx>> and it's a assets to be rechartered by another charter org.".

 

Council helping solve your CO issue ... doubt that will happen.  COs can torpedo their packs and there is not much that can be done.  COs own the pack.  Unless they release the pack, there is not much to be done.

 

Changing packs? ... Your decision.  How invested are you in that pack and the CO ?   How many kids do you have left?  Personally, cubs are cubs for a relatively short time (for this discussion).  Protect your scouts experience.  

[CalicoPenn]

 

Can a pack drop their CO and move to another one?   Sure - you can all up and go to another CO - but there are consequences.  All the funds in your account and all the equipment?  Stays with the CO where they can hold on to it until they form another Pack.  They'll also likely keep the Pack Number as well.  The only time something like this works out is when the current CO agrees that they no longer want to have a Pack.

 

Can something be done about a CO that refuses to assist the pack with a place to meet and causes more issues than being helpful?  Not really - you can either accept the relationship as it is, or you just go about finding a new CO to create a new Pack.  But before we get in to that, let's clear up a misunderstanding.  The Chartered Agreements do not require CO's to provide a place to meet though a lot of people think it does.  It only requires that the CO ensures that the Unit has appropriate facilities for their regular meetings.  You meet in a school - you're meeting in an appropriate facility - maybe someone way back when got that relationship going - maybe the unit found it on its own (and the Charter doesn't even require that the CO find you a place to meet - only to ensure that the place you meet is appropriate) - the point is that the obligation has been met.

 

Are they causing more issues?  Compared to when?  They may have been perfectly happy holding the charter and signing the paperwork once a year while leaving the Pack to it's own devices.  There are plenty of COs out there that do just that - sign the paperwork and say have a good year and the BSA has no interest in challenging that.  Perhaps the issues are caused by the Pack coming to the CO and changing the way the relationship operated.  It sounds to me like the COR is pushing back because you've created more work for her without knowing it.  Is there any reason the Pack leadership felt it had to try to get the CO more involved other than that's what some thought the CO should be doing?  You might be better off going back to the way things used to be.  I'm not sure what you're storing that you need a $300 a year storage facility.  Perhaps you can store some of the bigger used once a year items with the Troop (and have an agreement with the Troop rather than the CO) and other stuff can be stored in someone's garage or basement?  Perhaps someone who can't get involved as a volunteer on a weekly or monthly basis but has some room?

 

Should I listen to my wife and leave the pack with one more year left to go for my son in the pack?  I'm generally loathe to get involved in disagreements between spouses but I will suggest this - you have one year left to go - just one - your son has friends in his Den and Pack - moving him to a new Pack and Den at this point would likely be a bigger disruption to him, than it would be to either of you.  If there was more than a year left, that might make a difference, but kids in the Cub Scout age group are better off with that kind of year-to-year stability.  If he were a Boy Scout, it would probably be different - that age group tends to handle disruption a bit better.  

 

My suggestion would be to go back to the way things used to be and see if that makes things better.

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by CalicoPenn

[blw2]

Unless everyone moves to a new pack you'd be doing a disservice to the boys who don't go. As CM you have a responsibility to the boys. It sounds like you need to sit down with the pastor, the COR, the CC and talk.

 

No offense, but your wife is just one member of the committee. What does the rest of the committee think? What does the CC think? What does the pastor think?

 

I suspect it will be MUCH easier to sit down and work things out rather than to move, hurt the feelings of those who don't go and to make MORE problems.

kinda sounds like they already did the sit-down and talk....

yeah, probably wouldn't hurt to try again.  Maybe try to stress that the pack is a valuable ministry arm of the church, look for ways to make it even more so.... like that.  Seems to me they are looking at it like they are doing YOU &/or The PACK the favor..... maybe try to turn that around, or at least balance the scale....

 

Short of that, I would think the next step might be to survey the pack to see how many families would jump ship with you if you were to approach another CO nearby to move to, or to form a NEW pack under... then go from there.

[Stosh]

 

I am at a point where I really do not know what to do. I feel like I do not know who in my council to talk to, to get help. The CO is pushing us away. The CC is making more issues. So now with all the back story, here are my questions.

 

First of all @, my apologies up front if my comments sound a bit harsh.  Please accept them in the intent to help that they are given.

 

Can a pack drop their CO and move to another one?

 

Yes, absolutely, no problem, find a new CO, have them sign the charter when the recharter comes around.  Just walk away from the old CO, turn in all the pack equipment and turn over the packs funds and start all over again from scratch.  The pack did it once when they started up before,, they can do it again.  As a matter of fact they can do it as many times as they want.  If that doesn't sound like something one would want to do, then a new strategy might be in order.

 

Can something be done about a CO that refuses to assist the pack with a place to meet and causes more issues than being helpful?

 

Absolutely not.  If you can't meet at time(s) they have offered then they have met their requirements of the agreement.  I was the CA of a crew for 15 years and the CO NEVER ONCE provide us a place to meet.  As a matter of fact the CO had to rent a space each month for their meeting.  They offered us no place to store anything either.  The CO had no place to store their equipment except in their member's garages, we did the same thing.  Could we have pushed the issue?  Yep, we could have disbanded the crew at any time, turned over what equipment we did have and give them the bank book.  We chose other options to make it work for the guys and gals in the crew.

 

Should I listen to my wife and leave the pack with one more year left to go for my son in the pack?

 

Let your boy stay in the pack, You can leave at any time, you are a volunteer.  Chances are, your boy knows nothing about the Adult Drama Play being carried out in the background.  He's probably having fun and hanging with his buddies.  If the issue is causing you problems, then I would suggest, dropping off your boy, then take the Mrs. for a Date Night of coffee and pastries at the nearby bakery and pick up your boy when it's all over.  Thousands of parents around the country are doing similar things and packs are still running full steam ahead.

 

I am sorry for the long post and all the questions, but I really just don't know what to do.

 

Sorry David14, but what you express concerns about are typical for any troop or pack out there today.  If you spill coffee on the carpet and it costs $200 to clean.  Just have the CO send you the bill.  It sounded like the SM and other church leaders were aware of the spot, let them run some interference.  Let them know where to send the bill, then forget about it until it arrives.  I may never show up and you won't have lost any sleep over it.

 

It's hard being a leader in a unit because people can take things too personal.  To avoid that feeling, just remember, everything you are doing is for the boys, not you.  It helps a lot, been there, done that.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by Stosh

[Krampus]

kinda sounds like they already did the sit-down and talk....

yeah, probably wouldn't hurt to try again.  Maybe try to stress that the pack is a valuable ministry arm of the church, look for ways to make it even more so.... like that.  Seems to me they are looking at it like they are doing YOU &/or The PACK the favor..... maybe try to turn that around, or at least balance the scale....

 

 

Yeah, but it sounded like the COR plays dirty then the pastor is not around. I figured, as adults, they have a meeting where you nicely discuss everything that's bothering everyone and come up with an adult solution, rather than picking up your toys and going to another pack.

 

Not saying that leaving is not an option, but I'd want to exhaust all the options before doing that. Sounded like there was still some room to talk before leaving was the next option. 

[T2Eagle]

A lot of good advice so far, I would add two things.

 

1) There's no one who can make the CO do more than they want to do, if you want to reach out to someone in BSA to see if they have any help or advice track down your District Executive.  I wouldn't expect great things, but they may be able to point you to other Packs or COs in he even you do decide to leave.

 

2) Talk some more to the SM of the Troop that the CO charters, he may have some insight about how his relationship with the COR is maintained, and maybe some tips for how you can improve your relationship.

 

This kind of adult nonsense is almost always the biggest problem you face as a scout leader.  Do everything you can to keep it at the adult level and not let the boys become any sort of pawn in the squabble.

[Stosh]

A lot of good advice so far, I would add two things.

 

1) There's no one who can make the CO do more than they want to do, if you want to reach out to someone in BSA to see if they have any help or advice track down your District Executive.  I wouldn't expect great things, but they may be able to point you to other Packs or COs in he even you do decide to leave.

 

2) Talk some more to the SM of the Troop that the CO charters, he may have some insight about how his relationship with the COR is maintained, and maybe some tips for how you can improve your relationship.

 

This kind of adult nonsense is almost always the biggest problem you face as a scout leader.  Do everything you can to keep it at the adult level and not let the boys become any sort of pawn in the squabble.

In a divorce it's always the kids that get hurt the worst.

[seldon]

Part of the problem I see here is a confusion of roles. See, the Cub Scout pack is a patriotic organization. As such it is modeled after the U.S. government. The CM is like the President. He gets up on stage, makes a speech, and hands out awards, but at the end of the day he has no real power. The decisions are made by the committee behind closed doors. And they are all beholden to the CO, a reclusive organization that owns all the wealth and manipulates the pack for its own inscrutable purposes.

 

But seriously, what is the role of your CC here? Is he/she actively involved in this discussion? Really, it's on him to make sure there's a place to meet and store the stuff and do it at a reasonable cost, or to delegate that task to someone else. The best course to take depends on whether you, the CC and COR are pulling in different directions or if some are just apathetic.

 

If you think you can find a new organization to charter you, then, instead of rechartering with them, ask them to provide the things the pack needs. There's plenty a Cub Scout pack can do for a veterans group or church or whatnot in exchange for providing facilities.

[meschen]

The worse part about that is that we had to hear it from our CC, who we do not have a good relationship with ...

 

This is your problem. You need a sit down with your Committee Chair and fix your relationship. A Pack can not function if a Committee Chair and Cubmaster don't see eye-to-eye. You are a two person team and without a good relationship you are hurting your Pack's program and your boys.

 

You two should also discuss what each of your respective responsibilities are. Take a look at the BSA position descriptions and you'll find that the relationship with the Chartering Organization and COR is the Committee Chair's problem, not yours.

 

And if it hasn't been said before, someone somewhere should have realized holding a Cub Scout event in a room with a carpet anyone cares about was a bad idea from the start.

[andysmom]

I have a question about this....

 

The Chartered Agreements do not require CO's to provide a place to meet though a lot of people think it does.  It only requires that the CO ensures that the Unit has appropriate facilities for their regular meetings.  You meet in a school - you're meeting in an appropriate facility - maybe someone way back when got that relationship going - maybe the unit found it on its own (and the Charter doesn't even require that the CO find you a place to meet - only to ensure that the place you meet is appropriate) - the point is that the obligation has been met.

 

This is from Scouting.org

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/Relationships/TrainingtheCOR/03.aspx

Chartered Organization Responsibilities

By receiving a charter from the Boy Scouts of America, the chartered organization agrees to (List the following on a flip chart.)

• Conduct Scouting in accordance with its own policies and guidelines as well as those of the BSA.
• Include Scouting as part of its overall program for youth and families.
• Appoint a chartered organization representative who is a member of the organization and will represent it to the Scouting district and council, serving as a voting member of each.
• Select a unit committee of parents and members of the organization who will screen and select unit leaders who meet the organization's leadership standards as well as the BSA's standards.
• Provide adequate and secure facilities for Scouting units to meet on a regular schedule with time and place reserved.
• Encourage the units to participate in outdoor experiences.

 

 

You do have to abide by the CO's wishes about when and where you meet.  If they have something else going on the night you "normally" meet, you have to change your night.

[qwazse]

I have a question about this....

....

 

You do have to abide by the CO's wishes about when and where you meet.  If they have something else going on the night you "normally" meet, you have to change your night.

That's a statement, not a question.

The working assumption here is that the CO knows what facilities are at its disposal. That includes alternate facilities in the community that may serve scouting if the CO's own are reserved for special occasions. A good COR helps a committee sort that out. A bad COR says, "Room X is only available at time T. Go fish."

 

Our Pack had an explosion in growth, so they still charter with the CO, but hold most meetings at the school cafeteria. From all accounts, that was a team decision.

[andysmom]

That's a statement, not a question.

The working assumption here is that the CO knows what facilities are at its disposal. That includes alternate facilities in the community that may serve scouting if the CO's own are reserved for special occasions. A good COR helps a committee sort that out. A bad COR says, "Room X is only available at time T. Go fish."

 

Our Pack had an explosion in growth, so they still charter with the CO, but hold most meetings at the school cafeteria. From all accounts, that was a team decision.

 

 My question was in regards to whether or not a CO is required to provide a meeting place,   :-)

I do understand that it doesn't have to be in the building that belongs to the CO, but it does have to be someplace.

[Krampus]

My question was in regards to whether or not a CO is required to provide a meeting place,   :-)

Yes, it is in the Annual Charter Agreement: "Ensure appropriate facilities for the unit for its regular

meetings to facilitate the aims of the Chartered Organization and Scouting."