Troop Not Involved with Feeder Pack, Part Deux

[Eagle94-A1]

Well, it happened again. for the second year in a row, no Cubs from my pack are going to the CO's troop. Out of the 4 Cubs crossing over this weekend, 3 are going to one troop, 1 is coming over to mine. And no one confirmed about the 1 coming to us until today!

 

Interesting thing is this, their WDL was adamant about keeping the den together and joining the CO's pack up until June, when I stepped back from the pack some. The DL was upset when one Cub crossed over "early" in June ( Scout had a late birthday and met age requirements to become a Boy Scout) and joined my troop. I don't know what happened between June and  last month, but something happened and his den are going elsewhere.

 

The only thing I can think of was the lack of involvement with the Cubs by the troop. They didn't go to council camporee (which encourages Webelos to go and has a Cub World), they invited the Webelos to only one camp out, the district camporee (and that was a fiasco since all the troop did was stay in camp all day and did not do any of the events except the gateway and a game), they do not provide den chiefs, they didn't do Scouting for Food, and only had one Scout attend the Scout Sunday service we coordinated with them. As for this weekend's Webeloree, the SM said they will be there camping with the pack, but the troop still has not told the Webeloree Chief they are going, or which event they will be working. And they way it sounded from the parents' Facebook posts last night, they may not have any leaders going!

 

Yet they complain when other troops invite the pack's Webelos to camp. They complain when other troops provide den chiefs. They complain when Scouts from another troop help the pack with Scouting for Food. They complain when Cubs go to another CO's Scout Sunday services. And they complain when other troops invite the Webelos Den to camp with them at Webeloree.

 

Folks, if you don't do anything with your CO's Cub Scout pack,  then do not be surprised when no one joins your troop.

 

Thanks in advance for letting me vent.

[jr56]

Everything you say is so true.   Amazing how ignorant some people are.

[Eagle94-A1]

Sad thing is this has been going on for 4 years now. Multiple people have talked to the SM about this: 3 CMs, a WDL, a UC, old SM, training chair ( former ASM with the troop) and myself. I even spent a night with the troop so that they would have a second adult present, and we discussed this and other things around the fire for several hours. In one head out the other.

 

I am very slowly coming to grips with the situation. Hate to see the troop die, especially since I helped get it started by training the original adult leaders, and working with the original Scouts on occasion. But I made my choice, and son made his. I gotta stop looking back.

[fred johnson]

Sounds like the troop committee is not doing their job feeding back to CC & COR feedback from BOR and other people.  CC & COR are not providing feedback and/or correction to SM.  

[Eagle94-A1]

Unfortunately the CO has no involvement with the units other than a place to meet and store gear. In fact I heard one of the CO's members refer to the Scouts as a "outside group." Shows when the CO at the last minute forced the troop to cancel an Eagle Court of Honor that had been scheduled for several months because "their" youth group needed the space. Thankfully the OA stepped in and was able to secure their meeting space for the Eagle Scout's COH. And it's not from lack of trying on the Pack's part. They have been invited to Blue and Golds, camp outs, Cross Overs, etc. And this year the pack organized Scout Sunday.

 

As for the feedback from BORs, I don't know what is being said currently, But I do know that several who have Eagled and left or aged out have commented about the changes to the troop in the last 6 years. They were ignored.

 

On a positive note, they have 2 adults and 6 youth paid to go. Still have not contacted the event chief to say what event they are running.  Hopefully baby steps.

[Krampus]

Unfortunately the CO has no involvement with the units other than a place to meet and store gear. In fact I heard one of the CO's members refer to the Scouts as a "outside group." Shows when the CO at the last minute forced the troop to cancel an Eagle Court of Honor that had been scheduled for several months because "their" youth group needed the space. Thankfully the OA stepped in and was able to secure their meeting space for the Eagle Scout's COH. And it's not from lack of trying on the Pack's part. They have been invited to Blue and Golds, camp outs, Cross Overs, etc. And this year the pack organized Scout Sunday.

 

As for the feedback from BORs, I don't know what is being said currently, But I do know that several who have Eagled and left or aged out have commented about the changes to the troop in the last 6 years. They were ignored.

 

On a positive note, they have 2 adults and 6 youth paid to go. Still have not contacted the event chief to say what event they are running.  Hopefully baby steps.

Sounds very familiar. My cub unit never did anything with the Boy Scout unit and the CO didn't care about either. The troop nearly folded and has been on life support ever since.

 

Troops need to be active with Cubs....and not just only during recruiting.

[pargolf44067]

So here's a question.  What happens when the situation is reversed?  We have volunteered ourselves to help with meetings, offered den chiefs, invited to camp, invited to meetings, etc with our CO's pack and we can never get responses.  We only got one of their Webelos this year (their four split between three troops).  Usually the only time we hear from their leaders is when they want to get their bridge out of our shed.

 

We haven't given up yet and we keep trying.  One of their main leaders' son went to another troop this year with his older brother, but he seemed to be directing all the activities towards this other troop, so I hope now that he isn't involved it will start to get better, but we'll see.

[Krampus]

So here's a question.  What happens when the situation is reversed?  We have volunteered ourselves to help with meetings, offered den chiefs, invited to camp, invited to meetings, etc with our CO's pack and we can never get responses.  We only got one of their Webelos this year (their four split between three troops).  Usually the only time we hear from their leaders is when they want to get their bridge out of our shed.

 

We haven't given up yet and we keep trying.  One of their main leaders' son went to another troop this year with his older brother, but he seemed to be directing all the activities towards this other troop, so I hope now that he isn't involved it will start to get better, but we'll see.

 

When I see this happening it is because the pack leaders have a vested interest elsewhere. Is that the case?

 

We try to offer events that tie to the advancement path and work directly with Den Leaders. We have found that canned fun, ready-made events that tie in to advancement are GREAT ice breakers with the DLs...even if the CM or pack chair are hell-bent on making sure their members go to another troop.

 

Note to hijack the thread, but has anyone experienced a troop getting ticked off with you for recruiting "their" pack members? For example, Troop 101010 has a Pack 101010. Most of the time the pack Webelos to to the troop, but more and more they are looking outside that troop and attending other troops' events. AFAIK those Webelos are fair game, no?

Edited March 10, 2016 by Krampus

[Eagle94-A1]

Good question. I'd try talking to the Cub leaders first. Have a sit down, around the fire, or dinner table discussion. If that doesn't work, and IF you have an active CO, go to the COR or IH. and Krampus offers a great idea.

 

I'd also look at some history and try to find out why others are going elsewhere.

 

At the moment, the troop I am with is losing 50-75% of the Cubs crossing over from the feeder pack. We are making up by getting new Scouts from my pack and another pack and troop that folded. SO the SM and ASMs are not too concerned at the moment. And we know why: a pack folded just after the CO restarted its pack. So they joined the CO's pack. However they have brothers and parents involved with the original pack's feeder troop.  But the COR and IH is concerned.

 

An aside, my son noticed the lack of Cubs coming from the feeder pack and he is a little concerned. The troop has an open campout policy for Webelos, but few take advantage. Biggest time the Webelos interact are Webeloree, and camporees. Son wants to have a camp out dedicated to Webelos. When I talked to him about what my troop did as a recruiting tool, Wilderness Survival Weekend, and how we can apply it to the Castaway Adventure Badge, he is all for it.

 

On a personal note:  as expressed in older posts, the hardest thing to do is be "neutral" when you are involved in one troop, but your pack is affiliated with another.  It is doable, but hard.  I know with my oldest, only his best friend knew he was going to a different troop. The rest of his den and leaders didn't know until about 1.5 months before Crossover. And his friend wasn't going to join the CO's troop due to issues with some of the Scouts, and his friend influenced him! 

 

It's harder this go around. 2 of Older Son's den transferred out of the CO's troop to my son's and 2 dropped out all together, including one of the most gung ho Scouts. It was noticed on the pack level. The lack of involvement at district and council activities, as well as the cancelation of camp outs at the last minute and lack of camping, has been noticed by the pack. When I am asked what is the problem with the CO's troop, I have to be honest. I mentioned how the WDL was adamant about the den going to the CO's troop back up until June when I backed away. We talked about some issues and he said they are can be worked out. He must have seen something he didn't like to no longer push for the CO's troop.

 

So folks know where I stand now, and where my middle son is going in December. Heck middle son has already camped 2 times with the troop, has friends in the troop, and was jumping at the bit to join the troop when he would be eligible in May.  He's calmed down since because he wants to go  to the troop with the rest of his Cub den. and yes it looks like they are leaning towards my troop. My troop has been more involved with the pack than the CO's troop.  BUT I am trying to remain neutral. I have told folks visit ALL of the troops in the area and find the one that's right for them. Since it appears I have no influence with the CO's troop's SM, I have encouraged his friends involved with the pack to talk to him and persuade him to get involved with the pack.

 

I don't want the CO's troop to die. I mentioned I have been involved indirectly with the troop since it was founded 12  years ago. The troop was the reason why I visited the pack first. And it's frustrating to see what is happening to the troop. In one aspect the issues my troop are facing are a blessing since I have been focused on those, and not getting frustrated at something I helped get started die. And yes the troop is dying. Found out that since my den crossed over in December 2013, they have only gotten one new Scout, and he was a Star Scout transfer from out of council.

 

And the CM's son must be having some thoughts on which troop to join come December.  The Cub was concerned about joining one troop, and CM dad joining another. Dad had to tell him whatever troop he joins, dad goes too.

[T2Eagle]

Note to hijack the thread, but has anyone experienced a troop getting ticked off with you for recruiting "their" pack members? For example, Troop 101010 has a Pack 101010. Most of the time the pack Webelos to to the troop, but more and more they are looking outside that troop and attending other troops' events. AFAIK those Webelos are fair game, no?

We heard a little grumbling a few years back when we picked up three boys from a Pack that had traditionally had its boys crossover to a different troop.  This was not a case where the Pack and Troop had the same CO.  My response was to smile and shrug.

 

Packs in our area are mostly affiliated with individual public grade schools, which end at 5th grade.  There are roughly four Troops in the area and they are chartered mainly by churches; the CO with the largest Troop in the area also has a Pack.  We're sponsored by a Catholic Church, we have a Pack and the parish also has a school.  The year of the grumbling we had been approached by the WDL who wanted his son in a Catholic affiliated troop.  That experience actually helped us realize that our practice of not recruiting outside our own Pack was not going to continue to work because our Pack was reliant on the school for new scouts and the school's enrollment was falling off (this was all 2008-9 and the recession).  We started more actively recruiting from other Packs, we did hear a little more grumbling the next year, but at this point it's just the way it is, and I think the increased competition has caused each Troop to step up its game a little bit.  At the same time our Pack has done more to recruit boys from outside the Parish school, which has in turn helped us keep our numbers up even though the percentage of boys who attend our parish school is still going down.

 

We crossed over 7 scouts from our Pack last night. We expect three more total from two different Packs over the next couple weeks.  Next year we may be bursting, a handful from our Pack and the bulk of a 12 member Webelos den from a public school Pack that is led by the mother of one of our scouts.  To tie it back to the original thread, we supply that den with two den chiefs and have had them camping with us.

Edited March 10, 2016 by T2Eagle

[Krampus]

Packs in our area are mostly affiliated with individual public grade schools, which end at 5th grade.  There are roughly four Troops in the area and they are chartered mainly by churches; the CO with the largest Troop in the area also has a Pack.  We're sponsored by a Catholic Church, we have a Pack and the parish also has a school.  The year of the grumbling we had been approached by the WDL who wanted his son in a Catholic affiliated troop.  That experience actually helped us realize that our practice of not recruiting outside our own Pack was not going to continue to work because our Pack was reliant on the school for new scouts and the school's enrollment was falling off (this was all 2008-9 and the recession).  We started more actively recruiting from other Packs, we did hear a little more grumbling the next year, but at this point it's just the way it is, and I think the increased competition has caused each Troop to step up its game a little bit.  At the same time our Pack has done more to recruit boys from outside the Parish school, which has in turn helped us keep our numbers up even though the percentage of boys who attend our parish school is still going down.

In our area we have a mixture. Pack are affiliated with schools to a degree. They may reside at a CO but their is a corresponding school which is "aligned" to that pack. There are some packs still aligned directly with a school but the CO is a "friends of" organization. Most are part of a religious CO, though again have a school "assigned" to them by district. Packs tend to recruit from these schools, though more and more successful packs are recruiting everywhere.

 

Few troops have packs in their actual CO. Even fewer have packs that are directly linked (e.g., Troop 100 and Pack 100) to one another. Most troops have some sort of relationship with a few different packs and "tend" to send scouts to those troops.

 

Our unit monitors many of the packs (over 20) in our area to see how many scouts they have at each level. We then try to reach out to those packs to host events for them to create stronger bonds earlier in the process. This has helped our recruiting as our traditional "feeder" packs -- or packs with which we "usually" get scouts from -- have a smaller pipeline these days. This year we took 14 scouts from three different packs from which we've never gotten scouts.

 

Planning 3-5 years out using this technique has yielded great results for us. We've been able to sustain a new scout average of over 15 per year, whereas had we used our old method of relying just on those traditional sources we would have gotten fewer than 8 each year.

 

The troops that have not adapted this approach have struggled big time.

[Eagle94-A1]

Note to hijack the thread, but has anyone experienced a troop getting ticked off with you for recruiting "their" pack members? For example, Troop 101010 has a Pack 101010. Most of the time the pack Webelos to to the troop, but more and more they are looking outside that troop and attending other troops' events. AFAIK those Webelos are fair game, no?

 

Yes twice with the same troop.

 

About 3 years ago, we had a troop offer den chiefs for our pack. CO's SM gets very upset when he finds out and made a comment about the other troop trying to steal their Cubs, and that he will give us DCs.  Long story short, the DCs lasted less than 3 months, were hit and miss on attendance, and when they were there, were more of a problem. One DL sent his DC home in the middle of the meeting!  Once the Webelos crossed over, they quit coming.

 

Back in July my troop was doing a water weekend at a lake, so the Webelos could work on Aquanaut or whatever it's called now. Now I do not like giving my sons opportunities that their peers don't have. So I invited his entire den to camp with the troop if they wanted. THAT CAUSED A MAJOR PROBLEM ON FACEBOOK!  CO's SM made nasty comments about my troop and the integrity of it's leader trying to steal his Cubs. I admit, I lost my cool and responded. Tried to keep it lighthearted, but firm and fair. Talked about not only the recruiting issue, but also the other issues the troop has had.  I eventually deleted the posts, after being asked, and PMed the SM. I don't believe he ever read the message.

[Krampus]

@@Eagle94-A1, wow...that's some stuff.

 

I guess in our area we have soooo much competition that assuming the scouts in any one pack are going to your troop -- even if aligned -- is a bad idea. Fewer and fewer packs are part of any troop, even if co-located with the troop.

[Eagle94-A1]

At one time, we had a shared committee. The old SM also doubled as WDL. Troop invited Webelos to camp. Grant you the committee focused more on the troop than the pack, but over time the pack developed it's own committee. Long story short the change in SMs changed a lot of things.

 

Sad thing is this: SM wasa DL and CM of the pack. ASMs were DLs, and several of the commtitee members were ADLs, DLs and one was a CM.

 

Troop I'm with and their pack have a good relationship. Joint committee, although they do not do much, they still do something. Former CM is an ASM and haas an incoming Tiger. Multiple DLs have sons in the troop. We camp with them, do Scouring for Food and the Memorial Day Service Project with them, etc.

[fred johnson]

I guess in our area we have soooo much competition that assuming the scouts in any one pack are going to your troop -- even if aligned -- is a bad idea. Fewer and fewer packs are part of any troop, even if co-located with the troop.

 

Same in our area.  Very hard to have any continuity over time.  Lots of hard feelings.  Parents that cross over expect they can influence the next group.  More hard feelings.  The Webelos transition is just not fun anymore.  It's rather ugly.