Troop Level Training for Boy Leaders

[Hedgehog]

What I did was an exercise. Everyone took turns at being the leader. Everyone spent most of their time listening and if they had an idea they suggested it knowing it might get rejected. Everyone was also forced to take a turn at deciding everything for everyone. Believe it or not, this was the hardest part for most scouts. 

 

I've also found that making a decision to be the most difficult part of leadership for the boys.  For example, when the boys are deciding on outings, there is a tendency to come up with ideas, talk about them and then move on to something else without actually making a decision.  There is a balance between listening to people and trusting your own instincts (or you own wants) but ultimately a decision has to be made.  Even putting something to a vote is making a decision.

 

I also think that the exercise you did gives the boys a sense of how difficult it is to actually lead.  I find that people who are used to servant leadership make the best followers.

 

 

If a group has only one leader there cannot by definition be any team work.

 

A PL can determine the menu, but if the Grubmaster doesn't know how to prepare the food selection, the PL will have to cook.

A PL can determine the equipment but if the Quartermster doesn't have the equipment the PL will have to bring it.

A PL can pick out the movie for movie night but everyone's seen it the rest won't show up.

 

To think that rotating around the PL leadership among all the boys is like saying everyone has the same skills, the same talents, the same interests, the save drive, 

 

 

I would disagree.  A group without a leader is less likely to engage in teamwork.  A football team where the quarterback (or coach) doesn't call a play is not going to succeed.  The Grubmaster and Quartermaster are positions of responsibility, not leadership.  There is a difference.  A Quartermaster can do everything themselves (exercising their responsibility but no leadership) or can work with other scouts to accomplish what needs to be done (exercising both responsibility and leadership).  

 

A PL can facilitate his patrol in deciding on the menu, remind the Grubmaster to talk to the QM to make sure he has the right gear (e.g. Dutch Ovens for the pasta), work with the Grubmaster to assign cooking duties and work with the TG to make sure that boys who need to demonstrate cooking skills get the opportunity.  That is leadership on the PL's part by making sure the GM, QM and TG all suceed in their positions of responsibility.

 

Ultimately, the answer to my question seems to be that I's starting with a blank page of paper and developing this myself.  

[Eagledad]

 

Ultimately, the answer to my question seems to be that I's starting with a blank page of paper and developing this myself.  

So with that in mind, what I advised troops to do is sit down and identify (with your SPL) key problems with the leadership and management of the patrols. Then, pick the three worst problems. Only three because the troop is fairly new in this business of stepping past the bounds of the BSA material. So start slow and see what kind of impact you can have on the three problem areas. Be creative in your training, but the best rule of thumb for any kind of training is "Less is more" and "make it fun". 

 

A couple of other points I like to explain to troop leaders is that scouts should learn "Everything" by watching the other scouts. The perfect troop program is the one without any training because the scouts learn it all in the activities of the program. That should be the goal. 

 

Of course there are no perfect troops, so some training is required to grow toward that perfect troop. 

 

The other point is that generalized training has a low effect rate of growth because the participants aren't struggling or suffering enough to be motivated to learn. But spot training (training to fix specific problems) is very effective because there is high motivation to make their life easier.

 

So if you can get your program moving toward learning from doing and observing and then only fixing the hot areas with spot training, you will find that the scouts will grow to take the initiative for fixing their problems with quick creative spot training. They will learn to measure their performance and apply any help where needed. Measuring and improving their performance will become second nature.

 

It takes a little while to get there, but trust me that it works. We set a goal for the normal activities in the troop to be the main teachers. And where performance was sub par, we applied some training that usually only takes a few minutes. That is why our troop qot away from the grand two and three day JLT type of trainings and move to quick one training sessions intended for specific areas of need.

 

Hope this wasn't confusing.

 

Barry

[blw2]

This thread is right on-topic in my house now.

Just last night, was talking to my now APL son about his ILST class a few weeks ago.

His take.... it didn't really teach anything.... nothing useful.

 

and by the way, I have to admit, when I think back to what they did... I honestly cannot tell you anything they were lectured to about.  Not one topic.  I remember that the various instructors presented their sections well, and cover good theoretical stuff.... but really, the ONLY thing I can remember were two of the games.  OK, now that I think about those two games, I come back around to one section about communication and controlling the room/keeping distractions out.... the other game I remember, it illustrated working together, but I don't know what the topic was.

 

& i think Barry is spot on in a way too, about the learning by example thing... and is an inherent weakness in our troop's fixed 6 month election cycle..... everybody is always in a state of settling into a new job.

 

and re. the grubmaster example... my son was selected as grubmaster for the upcoming camp.  So, after the meeting I was priming him with questions.... Did you come up with a menu? ...so how was the menu decided? ....Do you know what you need to buy? .....

and it turns out that 

it was a team discussion with folks throwing out ideas and everyone settling on something they like - good so far

the newly elected PL took notes, not a complete shopping list but just the menu from the sounds of it... with some shopping list demands coming from the PL, such as "buy 2 gallons of milk"

then the grubmaster (son) did not come home with a copy of those notes, saying that it wouldn't matter anyway because the PL's handwriting is unreadable. He said "I guess I'll just have to go by memory"

 

Hilarious..... 

 

I guess I'll lead him along a little tonight by asking a few more questions.... try to get him to think about writing a detailed shopping list.  try to get him to think about what hedgehog suggests .... what are the specific tasks you'll need to do to make X?  Who can help with that? what tools/dishes do you need? how do you know you have them available? etc...

[Stosh]

 

I've also found that making a decision to be the most difficult part of leadership for the boys.

 

That is because decision making is not part of leadership, it is part of management.  If there is a task that needs to be done, the manager decides what has to be done to accomplish it.  A leader doesn't decide, but takes his cue as to what needs to be done from those that follow him.  If THEY are hungry he feeds them.  If they need warm clothing, he gets it for them.  He decides nothing but only reacts what the people need. 

 

Now problem solving is a close relative to decision making but is not the same thing.  The people need something from the leader and it might take some problem solving to figure it out and provide what's needed.

 

Once people figure out what goes into the leadership bucket and what goes into the management bucket, life gets a lot easier to figure out and teach.

 

 For example, when the boys are deciding on outings,

 

Right there is an example of management.  We have the TASK of coming up with an outing activity.   If the boys were in NEED of such an activity the decision would be a lot easier and they would come by it a lot quicker.

 

there is a tendency to come up with ideas, talk about them and then move on to something else without actually making a decision.  

 

But they have decided that none of those ideas met any of their real needs!  That's a decision that most won't recognize  NOT TO DECIDE IS TO DECIDE! 

 

There is a balance between listening to people and trusting your own instincts (or you own wants) but ultimately a decision has to be made.  Even putting something to a vote is making a decision.

 

If the process boils down to a vote, then ALL the people will not be taken care of and only those who vote for the issue will follow the person leading.  If people's needs are not being met they will seek leadership elsewhere.  Voting is a management decision whereby the most people are taken care of and the rest either accept it or go somewhere else.

 

I also think that the exercise you did gives the boys a sense of how difficult it is to actually lead.  I find that people who are used to servant leadership make the best followers.

 

 This may sound a bit convoluted, but the servant leader finds no difficulty in making decisions because the management task needed to meet the needs of his followers is given to him by the followers.  All he need to is manage their directives.  As long as he is providing what they say they need, they will follow!

 

I would disagree.  A group without a leader is less likely to engage in teamwork.

 

And that assessment is bogus.  ALL groups have a leader, and in many cases the designated leader is counter productive to teamwork, especially the designated leader who feels he/she has the authority to mandate the management of the group and it's tasks.

 

A football team where the quarterback (or coach) doesn't call a play is not going to succeed.  

 

Unless the other team fumbles the ball and the defensive lineman picks it up and runs it into the end zone and wins the game.  Again this is a bogus assumption.  Every player on the team at one point or the other has the skills and opportunities to pick up a fumble and make the group successful.  To rely on a single leader is saying that the football team is there to make sure the quarterback wins the game.  That is not, nor ever will be, my definition of football teamwork. 

 

The Grubmaster and Quartermaster are positions of responsibility, not leadership.  

 

Again that is a blanket statement of a partial truth.  The Grubmaster that takes care of his boys in the group IS the leader!  The Quartermaster who provides the right equipment at the right time for the group IS the leader!  Yes they have management tasks to perform but where do they get their marching orders from?  Yep, the group.  The Grubmaster makes meals he knows his boys want or they won't eat them.  The Quartermaster provides equipment the boys need or they won't use them.  Either way, if the Grubmaster or Quartermaster aren't serving the group they are not a leader and they have no benefit to the rest of the group.

 

One does not need to be the leader all the time, good leaders know when to step back and let another in the group lead as necessary.  This give and take of leadership in the group is what I call TEAMWORK.  If little Johnny picks up the fumble and heads for the end zone, the others don't wait for the quarterback to come on the field to take the ball into the end zone.  Nope.  Everyone on the defense does whatever they can to make it possible for little Johnny to make it to the end zone.  This arbitrary designation of leaders is a waste of time.  Everyone on the team needs to be taught to lead because the time will come when someone will be expected to pick up the ball and run at some time or another.  If little Johnny doesn't know what to do with the ball fumbled on the ground, the team will lose. 

 

There is a difference.  A Quartermaster can do everything themselves (exercising their responsibility but no leadership) or can work with other scouts to accomplish what needs to be done (exercising both responsibility and leadership).  

 

Yep, Quartermaster can be a job or it can be leadership of taking care of others  If my job is defined by a series of check boxes, take inventory, clean trailer, make sure things are clean, etc. he will be effective in his management of prescribed duties.  But if he leads he will have to know what his people need and get it to them when they need it. 

 

A PL can facilitate his patrol in deciding on the menu,

 

Or the Grubmaster can take the lead and work with the boys directly and more efficiently. 

 

remind the Grubmaster to talk to the QM to make sure he has the right gear (e.g. Dutch Ovens for the pasta),

 

Which would be a clear indication that the PL is letting the Grubmaster know he isn't capable of doing his job and has to be reminded over and over again what he needs to do to MANAGE his job.  That will surely support and encourage any boy to endeavor to ever take on that job.

 

work with the Grubmaster to assign cooking duties

 

Is there such a thing as helicopter PL?

 

and work with the TG to make sure that boys who need to demonstrate cooking skills get the opportunity.

 

super helicopter PL doing the job of everyone on the team.   Sounds like a severe trust issue going on with the PL running around reminding everyone how little he trusts their ability to do the job they were supposed to be doing.

 

 That is leadership on the PL's part by making sure the GM, QM and TG all suceed in their positions of responsibility.

 

And this exactly how to insure they won't!  Why should I do the work if the PL is going to cover all the bases himself.   

 

Ultimately, the answer to my question seems to be that I's starting with a blank page of paper and developing this myself.  

 

You have the right idea, but a look deeper into the dynamics of what's happening here would be helpful.

 

 

I would disagree.  A group without a leader is less more likely to engage in teamwork.  A football team where the quarterback (or coach) doesn't call a play is not going to succeed.  The Grubmaster and Quartermaster are positions of responsibility, not leadership.  There is a difference.  A Quartermaster can do everything themselves (exercising their responsibility but no leadership) or can work with other scouts to accomplish what needs to be done (exercising both responsibility and leadership).  

 

A PL can facilitate trust his patrol in letting the Grubmaster lead when deciding on the menu, he can trust his Grubmaster so he won't need to remind the Grubmaster to talk to the QM to make sure he has the right gear (e.g. Dutch Ovens for the pasta), He can trust work with the Grubmaster to assign cooking duties and work with the TG to make sure that boys who need to demonstrate cooking skills get the opportunity.  That is leadership helicopeter management on the PL's part by making sure the GM, QM and TG all suceed know they can't be trusted in their positions of responsibility.

 

Here's my PL...  He goes up to Grubmaster and says, "What's on the menu next weekend?"  Grubmaster says the boys want hot dogs and Pop-Tarts all weekend long!  PL says, "What can I do to help fix it so we have more nutritious meals for the boys?"  Grubmaster, "What are your ideas as to what to suggest?" etc. 

 

PL then goes to QM, "How it going for the weekend?"  QM says, pretty good, but he's missing a Dutch Oven and it should be in the storage shed.   PL says, let me help you find it.  It'll save you some time for more important things.

 

PL then goes to the TG and says, "Any of the new boys gonna be helping the Grubmaster this weekend?"  TG says, yep, I already got it lined up with him to have Johnny and Jimmy helping out with the Pop-Tarts and hot dogs.

 

Instead of saying good bye at the end of each of these conversations the PL says, "Great job, keep it up and if you need any help let me know right away."

 

THAT is servant leadership on the part of the PL... and servant leadership of everyone else at different times doing different jobs

 

Can a patrol operate without a PL?  Nope, each team member needs a champion to cheer them on, and help them out on occasion when needed.  When the team members look good, the PL looks good.  This approach has been found to get my boys up and running very quickly in terms of leadership and teamwork.  Management seems to fall into place quite naturally AFTER leadership and teamwork has been established, not before.  I have found that without everyone's leadership and teamwork, management usually ends up a slow-motion train wreck every time.

[Stosh]

just some thoughts.

 

and re. the grubmaster example... my son was selected as grubmaster for the upcoming camp.  So, after the meeting I was priming him with questions....Enter the helicopter parent.    Did you come up with a menu? ...so how was the menu decided? ....Do you know what you need to buy? .....or non-helicopter parent could have primed his pump by saying, "Grubmaster?  sounds like a challenge...."

and it turns out that 

it was a team discussion with folks throwing out ideas and everyone settling on something they like - good so far

the newly elected PL took notes, not a complete shopping list but just the menu from the sounds of it... with some shopping list demands coming from the PL, such as "buy 2 gallons of milk"

then the grubmaster (son) did not come home with a copy of those notes, saying that it wouldn't matter anyway because the PL's handwriting is unreadable. He said "I guess I'll just have to go by memory"

 

rewind: GM son says, Hey guys, who's got the best handwriting here to take menu notes? (Good management)

Little Johnny?  Great, here's paper and pencil, write down what I tell you (Excellent job training boy knows exactly what is expected of him.)

Mac and Cheese?  Write that down Johnny (Servant leadership by Johnny)

Milk -  2 galleons? got that Johnny?

By the way, TG do you have any boys needing advancement? (Teamwork) 

TG - Peter needs cooking requirement.

Can he do Mac and Cheese?  Yes?  Good, let him know he's got Saturday lunch.

QM, we have dutch ovens for the mac and cheese?  Yes?  Good that's covered.

 

We're all set

 

Johnny, lets see that list.  Want to go with me to do the shopping?

 

At this point is the PL leading?  Nope, GM Son is leading.  At one time or another everyone leads.  Who's leading with the writing?  Johnny  Who's leading with the advancement? TG  Who's leading with the equipment?  QM.

 

It's called teamwork

 

 

Hilarious..... 

 

I guess I'll lead him along a little tonight by asking a few more questions.... try to get him to think about writing a detailed shopping list.  try to get him to think about what hedgehog suggests .... what are the specific tasks you'll need to do to make X?  Who can help with that? what tools/dishes do you need? how do you know you have them available? etc...

[blw2]

 

If the process boils down to a vote, then ALL the people will not be taken care of and only those who vote for the issue will follow the person leading.  If people's needs are not being met they will seek leadership elsewhere.  Voting is a management decision whereby the most people are taken care of and the rest either accept it or go somewhere else.

 

which is an interesting comment, when I look at it from the perspective of when scouts are voting, and what for.

Voting for PL or other POR's... yep, MIGHT not result in everyone getting taken care of.... but what else is one to do? You'll rarely get a consensus with something like that

Voting for menu items.... yep, an example where consensus would be much better in preventing say PB&J sandwiches for lunch when a scout has a peanut allergy (yeah, I know it's an extreme and maybe exaggerated, but it illustrates)

 

 

 

just some thoughts.

 

and re. the grubmaster example... my son was selected as grubmaster for the upcoming camp.  So, after the meeting I was priming him with questions....Enter the helicopter parent.    Did you come up with a menu? ...so how was the menu decided? ....Do you know what you need to buy? .....or non-helicopter parent could have primed his pump by saying, "Grubmaster?  sounds like a challenge...."

 

 

yeah, I'll be the first to admit that I sometimes might be caught helicoptering a bit.....but never as bad as some parents I've seen.

Still, I think you're missing a little context with that statement Stosh....

I would accept that I would be helicoptering like mad if I made the shopping list for him and took him shopping to "show" him how to select the best kind of mac and cheese for example....

BUT

considering that he has NEVER been introduced to what a grubmaster needs to do

isn't what I would call an accomplished chef

and considering that he will not be in a position to ever meet with a SM, ASM, TG, SPL, or an experienced GM before this campout, in order to get any coaching, direction, or have an opportunity to discuss

a few leading questions to prime him along, to increase his odds of success just a bit, isn't much harm I'd think.  Like throwing out a pillow to land on as I see a faceplant about to happen

 

Letting him fall flat on his face at this stage of the game would not serve anyone in a positive way at this point.  (new patrol, most scouts have been with the troop about a week, lack of patrol spirit in son because of having his opinion poo pooed, a new PL who's in no position to support the patrol, is even less experienced than son is & who is everything except a good "leader", and that PL being the poo pooer that caused the reduced patrol spirit in the first place)

 

If other things were more solid... sure, I'm all for the pure life lesson.

     but he's in a position where he needs to have at least a fighting chance to support his patrol as the APL and GM, and not have a gross failure... unless of course he just doesn't even try.

[Stosh]

which is an interesting comment, when I look at it from the perspective of when scouts are voting, and what for.

Voting for PL or other POR's... yep, MIGHT not result in everyone getting taken care of.... but what else is one to do? You'll rarely get a consensus with something like that

 

This is why I have the boys select a PL.  If they are going to elect a PL they usually just hand out paper, take a vote and that's that.  Seen it done hundreds of times this way.  When I tell the boys select, they don't always vote, they talk about it, they try to make it fair, they discuss why they think a certain person will do a good job (as compared to a candidate speech of questionable promises) etc.  They might not get consensus, but they will evaluate the situation and every will get a say in the selection process, not just an anonymous ballot. 

 

Voting for menu items.... yep, an example where consensus would be much better in preventing say PB&J sandwiches for lunch when a scout has a peanut allergy (yeah, I know it's an extreme and maybe exaggerated, but it illustrates)

 

Ever wonder why some boys don't attend an activity they didn't win a vote on?  I don't.

 

Ever wonder why some boys will skip a meal and/or eat food from the trading post?  I don't.

 

Ever wonder why patrol spirit and teamwork takes a hit every time the patrol votes on something controversial?  I don't.

 

Ever wonder why some boys are eager to change patrol membership after they have been voted down for the 150th time?  I don't.

 

Ever wonder why the older boys don't show up to the same summer camp they have been to for the last 6 summers?  I don't.

 

Ever wonder why the troop needs ad hoc patrols of just boys wanting to be at an activity and the other half of each patrol didn't show?  I don't.

 

I try really hard to avoid elections in the patrol.  They can choose to do them if they wish, but there are far better ways for the boys to make decisions than blind votes.

 

yeah, I'll be the first to admit that I sometimes might be caught helicoptering a bit.....but never as bad as some parents I've seen.

 

We all do at different times...

 

Still, I think you're missing a little context with that statement Stosh....

I would accept that I would be helicoptering like mad if I made the shopping list for him and took him shopping to "show" him how to select the best kind of mac and cheese for example....

BUT

considering that he has NEVER been introduced to what a grubmaster needs to do

 

If he paid attention during this S2FC requirements he has been trained.

 

isn't what I would call an accomplished chef

 

Not necessarily  A fry pan, hamburger, onions, ketchup and buns will make great Sloppy Joes, toss in a bag of chips and a drink box.  You're done. 

 

and considering that he will not be in a position to ever meet with a SM, ASM, TG, SPL, or an experienced GM before this campout, in order to get any coaching, direction, or have an opportunity to discuss

 

I'm seeing a serious lack of support leadership going on in this troop.   Your son has more problems than just being a GM.  As a parent I would be talking to the SM/ASM/TG/SPL and find out why they are expecting an untrained boy to do the job.  Where's his PL in all of this? 

 

A quick search on the internet for "Simple Recipies" produced 143,000,000 hits in .37 seconds.  Along with learning how to be a GM, problem solving skills needs to be propped up too. 

 

a few leading questions to prime him along, to increase his odds of success just a bit, isn't much harm I'd think.  Like throwing out a pillow to land on as I see a faceplant about to happen

 

Not a problem, but would you do this for other boys in the troop or just yours?    That's the one that would always bite me in the butt. 

 

Letting him fall flat on his face at this stage of the game would not serve anyone in a positive way at this point.  (new patrol, most scouts have been with the troop about a week, lack of patrol spirit in son because of having his opinion poo pooed, a new PL who's in no position to support the patrol, is even less experienced than son is & who is everything except a good "leader", and that PL being the poo pooer that caused the reduced patrol spirit in the first place)

 

So, what is your son going to do to take care of his boys as the GM?  That will determine whether he is a good leader or not.    If some boy got stuck in this situation and he could call the local pizza joint on his cell phone, I'd say go for it.  He's taking care of his boys.  He received no guidance, no training, no support and he took care of his boys and they will love him forever.  May end up the permanent GM. 

 

If the SM/ASM/TG/SPL or PL don't like it, then you as a parent spell it out for them.  He did what was necessary to take care of his boys and if they had ideas other than what he did, they should have said something earlier.  End of discussion.

 

If other things were more solid... sure, I'm all for the pure life lesson.

     but he's in a position where he needs to have at least a fighting chance to support his patrol as the APL and GM, and not have a gross failure... unless of course he just doesn't even try.

 

All he need do is Do his best to do his duty to those he is responsible for.  Pick out foods that he likes and thinks the boys would enjoy, knock out the details and don't sweat the fall-out.  Remember if he does a lousy job, they'll never again ask him to be QM.  This is a good thing.... and why is the APL the same person as the GM?  This patrol and troop are seriously dysfunctional at best.  No one should be doing double duty.

 

Oh, by the way, if the answer to that last statement was the GM duty floats around among all the boys in the patrol, then ALL the positions should as well.  When total chaos ensues, you will realize how stupid that idea really is.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Stosh

[blw2]

I like that twist calling it selection, rather than an election, @@Stosh!

 

I'm still so new with the troop I'm not suggesting much to the SM/ASMs yet, or SPL/PLs for that matter (I know most of these folks from Pack,and some form outside of scouting, but I haven't developed that trust at the troop level yet)

but this one I might try to fit it into a casual conversation one of these days soon!

 

Having come in with our 2nd meeting the election night, I saw how they do it.... and I got to say it felt awkward to me.

So the boys had submitted previously a signed thing telling the SM (or committee?) that they wanted to run for X position.  This paper outlines the prerequisites if any, duties, expected attendance, etc... and the parent signs it signifying that they understand and promise to support the scout getting him to meetings and letting him attend events.  This part seems ok to me, although smells very adult.... but I like the all around understanding it brings to the party

 

Now the awkward part

The candidates each stood in front of the troop and gave their speech/ made their case (why, what, etc.)

 

Then the anonymous little slips of paper game...

Then much tallying by the SPL and SM helping....

 

I think modeling your selection process as something for the scouts to consider makes a lot of sense.

[Krampus]

So the boys had submitted previously a signed thing telling the SM (or committee?) that they wanted to run for X position.  This paper outlines the prerequisites if any, duties, expected attendance, etc... and the parent signs it signifying that they understand and promise to support the scout getting him to meetings and letting him attend events.  This part seems ok to me, although smells very adult.... but I like the all around understanding it brings to the party

 

Now the awkward part

The candidates each stood in front of the troop and gave their speech/ made their case (why, what, etc.)

 

Then the anonymous little slips of paper game...

Then much tallying by the SPL and SM helping....

What is odd about that process? The boys submit candidacy for elected positions. Parents approve. The boys give speeches as to what they would do for the troop. The boys elect using secret ballot.

 

Why would mirroring out electoral process be odd? Just curious as to how someone would change that.

[Stosh]

Because in America if you don't like the candidate that gets elected, you can deride them, make fun of them, ignore them, and a number of other things that BSA would frown upon.  

 

You don't like the way things are going?  Move to another country.  Businesses are doing it by the thousands.  Individual protected off-shore bank accounts are as American as apple pie.

 

If this is the goal of elections in one's troop, then feel free to keep handing out little pieces of paper.

 

Used to be schools were run by townships, villages  communities, and cities.  Now they are run by Washington.  Take a poll sometime and see how that's working out for you.  Then pick up your voucher so you can send you kid to a real school, run by the people in your neighborhood. 

 

Nope, I want my PL's selected by the boys in the patrols.  just like a township supervisor is vetted by his neighbors.

 

Then ask yourself when did you ever get a ballot letting you vote for the national president of the BSA.

 

The BSA teaches a system of leader selection they don't even use.

 

It's a great lesson to teach civics and how the government is supposed to work.  But if one wants effective, functional patrol management and leadership, just let the boys work it out on their own.  For a long time I could never figure out why my boys didn't seem to generate the problems others were experiencing.  Maybe it's because the win or lose, success or failure of the patrol method lies 100% in the hands of the boys in the patrol.  With that much pressure placed on them to find effective leadership, they tend to pick the best scouts for the job based on their records, not on their promises or POR needs.

 

If one is teaching boys how to cope with poor leadership and ineffective management, please disregard my comments and carry on with what you're doing.

 

 
 

[Eagledad]

 

If one is teaching boys how to cope with poor leadership and ineffective management, please disregard my comments and carry on with what you're doing.

 

 

If one were confident in their advice, there would be no need for a condescending tone.

 

Scouting is about developing character and integrity. If the Scoutmaster is accomplishing that goal, it doesn't matter how a scout becomes the leader because all the members in the process know and understand the expectations. If the scouts use the BSA manuals for their patrol method, they have all the guidelines needed for placing scouts into PORs without any adult guidance.

 

Barry

Edited March 10, 2016 by Eagledad

[blw2]

What is odd about that process? The boys submit candidacy for elected positions. Parents approve. The boys give speeches as to what they would do for the troop. The boys elect using secret ballot.

 

Why would mirroring out electoral process be odd? Just curious as to how someone would change that.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to imply it was odd.

The speech part just felt awkward to me.... & I'm not the one having to stand up there and do it!

No, what i was meaning to do was build on Stosh's comment about selecting, not electing

so, if I'm understanding it correctly, the patrol with everyone in attendance is tasked to select the next PL.  So, they can of course vote if the want.... or sit around a table and have a discussion.... sort of like a nomination/debate/election at a round table..... basically they would spitball their merits, their needs, pros/cons, who needs the POR, etc... in an open discussion.

[Krampus]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply it was odd.

The speech part just felt awkward to me.... & I'm not the one having to stand up there and do it!

No, what i was meaning to do was build on Stosh's comment about selecting, not electing

so, if I'm understanding it correctly, the patrol with everyone in attendance is tasked to select the next PL.  So, they can of course vote if the want.... or sit around a table and have a discussion.... sort of like a nomination/debate/election at a round table..... basically they would spitball their merits, their needs, pros/cons, who needs the POR, etc... in an open discussion.

 

At the patrol level most "elections" tend to be "selections" anyway. We';ve had a few really good contests, but most of the time the guys themselves decide in advance who is running for each position. We've even had patrols transition leaders like a monarchy; where one boy was the obvious successor as another boy moved up to a troop-level position. Have even had best friends (group of 6) decided who was going to run first for SPL, then who was next, etc, etc.

 

The boys find a way to fill in any gaps. It may drive some adults crazy, but it is not our troop.

[Stosh]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply it was odd.

The speech part just felt awkward to me.... & I'm not the one having to stand up there and do it!

No, what i was meaning to do was build on Stosh's comment about selecting, not electing

so, if I'm understanding it correctly, the patrol with everyone in attendance is tasked to select the next PL.  So, they can of course vote if the want.... or sit around a table and have a discussion.... sort of like a nomination/debate/election at a round table..... basically they would spitball their merits, their needs, pros/cons, who needs the POR, etc... in an open discussion.

 

You got it.  and in my patrols this process can happen any time they decide it's needed.  If the guy they (s)elect as PL isn't doing the job, they sit down and figure out who can.  If some kid misses his POR because he wasn't paying attention and doing his job, he's got no one to blame but himself.  If you're doing a bang up job, I seriously doubt if the patrol's going to yank your POR.

 

Krampus' selection process of a monarcy of passing the baton is also another option  A lot of scouts operate in political climates such as that and who knows, for small groups that might be the best option. 

 

While it's been a few years since I was present when an SPL was used, the selection of that position was similar to the patrol selection process.  The PL's selected the SPL.  After all this person was the #1 support person with the best qualifications to help the PL's with their jobs.  It made sense and worked just fine.  Only once was a non-APL selected as the SPL.  The APL's were already doing the job of assisting and helping the PL's so the best one of the bunch was singled out and had to then support ALL the PL's not just one in his patrol.  The only other person to be SPL was a PL that stepped down from his PL position so another member in his patrol could get a chance at a POR.  The patrol thought this was fine and the PL's thought it was fine and it worked just as well as picking from the APL's.

 

The other "troop" positions were selected like the SPL.  All the QM's got together and selected the guy they wanted to work with when getting the gear, etc.  NSP could pick any scout in the troop to be their TG and if that boy wasn't working out they could pick someone else.  The only boys that had to pass any adult "test/vetting" was the DC's who needed to convince the DL they were contributing to the welfare of the den.  Some of the positions were just "taken on" out of the blue and if no one had an issue with it, no problem.  One boy wanted to be Chaplain's Aide, no one had a problem with it and he served very nicely for 4 years.  He finally aged out and that was that.

 

It's really quite interesting how things work out when the adults don't get in there and start messing with setting up a system for the boys.  Leave them alone, they do nicely all by themselves.

[Eagledad]

 

 

It's really quite interesting how things work out when the adults don't get in there and start messing with setting up a system for the boys.  Leave them alone, they do nicely all by themselves.

Please help me here stosh, since the SPL and PL handbooks guide the scouts in a process for picking their PORs, the Scouts require "zero" help, guidance or intervention from the adults. Your style, while it also works, requires quite a bit of adult coaching because it is a process unfamiliar to the scouts. I'm familiar with the stosh scouts leaders selection process and I have no trouble with it, but the troops that I watched use it took some time helping the scouts understand it because it is a totally new idea. Once the scouts get used to the stosh scout process, neither system requires adults and the scouts do nicely all by themselves with both systems.

 

Really stosh, just give them the books and leave them alone. You will see that they will do nicely by themselves. And you can drink more coffee with the ASMs.

 

Barry