Leader Training

[Krampus]

One reason why I try and find folks who have the knowledge, skills, and abilities to teach the classes, whether they are "trained" or not. I hated sitting through courses I could teach, and I don't want folks to do that. 

 

Which is another reason I complained heavily when National tried to make folks go through training every time the course name changed.

 

This is where the council training person can come in handy. We got equivalency for leaders who were obviously trained above the BSA baseline. It takes a bit more time, and may not always work, but so far we have never been turned down.

[Sentinel947]

Sorry to report that proximity to national has no guarantee of BSA data precision either. Went to a council camp, took training, not recorded or reported. Had I not kept my own cards and gone, on my own, to council to straighten it out I would not have gotten credit for nearly 50 hours of training!

 

Last year, after 12 years in the BSA records, my entire training history was wiped out online. Even my user ID was wiped out. Called BSA. Spoke to their technical team (think guy by a computer with little understanding of how their system actually works) and was told 1) Sorry for the mistake, 2) There's no way to get my data back (Me thinking: A major national organization has NO data back up for production data??!!), 3) They can restore my user ID but there will be no data behind it, and 4) If I want to go to the council office they will help be reconstruct my records PROVIDED *I* had all the training cards.  And they want my unit data for ScoutBook? 

 

Moral of the story: Keep annual printed back-up of your BSA records. Keep an archive of your Internet Advancement records. If BSA have another data loss incident those are the only records that might be around to prove anything. I'll never give BSA any data without having my own digital AND hard copy back-up.

This is why as a trainer I keep a copy of every roster for every training event I teach. So that when a council inevitably loses the certification, I can help people avoid having to retake a training. 

[TAHAWK]

Sorry to report that proximity to national has no guarantee of BSA data precision either. Went to a council camp, took training, not recorded or reported. Had I not kept my own cards and gone, on my own, to council to straighten it out I would not have gotten credit for nearly 50 hours of training!

 

Last year, after 12 years in the BSA records, my entire training history was wiped out online. Even my user ID was wiped out. Called BSA. Spoke to their technical team (think guy by a computer with little understanding of how their system actually works) and was told 1) Sorry for the mistake, 2) There's no way to get my data back (Me thinking: A major national organization has NO data back up for production data??!!), 3) They can restore my user ID but there will be no data behind it, and 4) If I want to go to the council office they will help be reconstruct my records PROVIDED *I* had all the training cards.  And they want my unit data for ScoutBook? 

 

Moral of the story: Keep annual printed back-up of your BSA records. Keep an archive of your Internet Advancement records. If BSA have another data loss incident those are the only records that might be around to prove anything. I'll never give BSA any data without having my own digital AND hard copy back-up.

.When National mandated that my oldest council use BSA software, all the pre-2005 data was not just lost but replaced.  I am shown as having completed SM training in 1910 and staffed WB in 1926.  We are told to just submit what we think is correct and the Council Registrar had the access to change to what we say is correct.  "Records"

[Stosh]

I have been told by a few of my fellow scouters that I have been passed over Silver Beaver because I don't have the District Award of Merit.    I find that strange that I have a certificate stating such, a nice little paperweight, a Plaque for the wall, and I wear the knot on all my uniforms.  I don't know how many times I've been told to get it corrected, I have told the same number of people I don't care.  As long as it doesn't keep me from working with my boys, I'm good.  So far, every time the unit recharters, I'm marked as trained, so life is good.  One of these days I'm gonna find that box with all the DAM junk in it, just for old time's sake. 

[blw2]

This is where the council training person can come in handy. We got equivalency for leaders who were obviously trained above the BSA baseline. It takes a bit more time, and may not always work, but so far we have never been turned down.

 

sorry i haven't read all the posts here, I'been absent with work getting in the way lately.

read the first several posts but there are some long ones

 

Anyway, I was thinking along the lines of Eagle94-A1 and others..... that having them teach would be a great way out.

and Krampus that as trainer I think an evaluation would be in order. If you know them well, you could prob do it without them ever even knowing.

If you don't, a conversation over a cup of coffee would tell you if they have the requisite knowledge.  i don't mean pencil whipping, but legitimate knowledge/qualifications

in which case you could sign them off as if having taken the course... like a college class test out.  

Is there a rule against doing that?

 

But more to the original question, i would say that it should depend on which training checkoff it is that they are missing.... and why.

YPT, I hate the redundancy of doing it again and again, but there really is no excuse for not doing it

ditto for all the other online stuff....I would say that within a month they should be done (really a week or so, but I'll be generous)

 

The other stuff... well it depends.

I think I was 2 years in before they offered BALLOO around here (which by the way was a joke, since most of the students could have just as well been a teacher)

I have been considering taking IOLS.  Started around last summer/fall or so looking, to this day they still have not offered one on a weekend that i didn't have a personal or pack conflict

[SSScout]

There it is.   I got into training when the District Training chair (who I knew from Cub Scout days) asked me if I had been an Eagle Scout?  I said I still was (!).  He said, could I teach camp cooking?  I said what do you mean by that, he explained what IOLS was, and he needed some help, I said sure, what should I expect, he said talk about camp hygiene, demonstrate a breakfast, lunch and dinner meal, do I do a camp fire, he said no, just cooking, I asked on a stove, he said yeah, but talk about the difference, we'll have a camp fire ring to point at, I said well, okay.

What he neglected to tell me was that the folks were expecting to EAT the dinner I cooked, so my layer cake stew was stretched a little thin, but they came away impressed none the less.   AND the fellow who was to teach fire safety and building didn't show up, so I taught that too, that weekend. 

And then he gave me SMF, IOLS and BALOO training cards for my collection. 

[blw2]

SMF?

 

layer cake stew?

[T2Eagle]

I appreciate all for their inputs. Not sure if my Council is participating in this program. It is a little hard being these people have been in Scouting each for up to 40 years plus. I am a little new to Scouting. Approximately 1 year and I have taken every training possible. I feel that to be an effective Trainer I Must have the knowledge to lead. Just a little info about me. I am a 9 year USAF Pararescueman. I was also a Leader in the American Naval Cadets for 8 years. So I am a believer in Lead, Follow, or Get out of the way. The BSA is pretty clear in what is expected. I was in the impression that these guidelines were to insure that the Scouts have a fun productive experience. This can only happen if all our leaders are trained. My goal and responsibility as a Trainer is to strive for excellence. 100 percent. I came into a troop that was restructuring from a SM that was not effective and training was not up to par. Have turned it around with 12 ASM and new Committee Members. Sometimes you can teach a new dog new tricks. I will figure out these issues. Will start with utilizing their backgrounds and incorporating this into a training program. I have the Backing of my Committees and Sm to do what is necessary to get this done. I t is just my goal. The tragedy in life is not reaching your goals. The tragedy lies in having no goals to reach. It is not a calamity not to reach the stars, but it is to have no stars to reach. For you see not failure but low aim is sin. Thanks again to all input an I will figure this out for the best of the Boys. Bubba

So Bubba Bubba, your enthusiasm is welcome, but here's some thoughts after reading your post and the responses.

 

First and foremost, institutional knowledge of an organization is critical information, and it will rarely be provided by the organization in any formalized way --- you need to go find it.  

 

You're not a little new to scouting, you're a babe in the woods in a century old organization, that's in no way a bad thing, but you need to recognize that fact when you are talking about setting goals or understanding what the organization does or even should want.  You say "The BSA is pretty clear in what is expected."  As you can see from the posts here BSA is absolutely not clear in what is expected and has backtracked and sidestepped on this issue over and over again.  You should probably step back a bit, set aside your notion of goals and instead strive to find the knowledge you first spoke of.  Ask a lot more questions, like you have here, before you assume you have the knowledge to set useful goals.  Is the lack of a credential really the same as untrained?  What is IOLS, why is it useful to help lead the scouts?  Is it even true that your ASMs never took it?  Why didn't they?  Other than being able to say "100%" why is the formal credential important now? What are the other ways that you can get this credential if it is important?  (Hint: they can test out, and if you're a trainer you may be the person who can "test" them, and that doesn't really need to be a formal test it can be an observation that after 40 years they actually do know T21 skills which is what IOLS is.

 

Goals setting can be useful, but it's not the only means to a better end, and no goal is on its own self justifying.  

[blw2]

..... I am a 9 year USAF Pararescueman. I was also a Leader in the American Naval Cadets for 8 years. So I am a believer in Lead, Follow, or Get out of the way. ....

 

I saw a really good documentary a while back on USAF Pararescue, in Afghanistan i believe it was.

All I can say is thank you for your service and give you a salute!

 

I'll bet you're more than prepared to put on a really great high adventure program.  I wish I could be a part of it.

[TAHAWK]

I have never taken IOLS.  (Which aims to give you the information and skills to pass the outdoor portion of the T-F requirements)

 

I twice completed the outdoor portion of Scoutmaster training and completed Wood Badge at a time when outdoor skills were part of the training.

 

I have staffed IOLS thirteen times.

 

This sort of combination of facts may apply to any long-serving commissioned Scouter.

[Sentinel947]

@@T2Eagle gives solid advice. 
 

I'll add me my piece for @@bubba.bubba. Your enthusiasm is great. Find a way to get your ASM's the certifications in a way that respects their experience and knowledge. 

The training is set up with the expectation that the leaders being trained are new to scouting, or at least new to the ASM or SM position. They have a lot to gain from the IOL's/ SM Specific training, even if they know bits and pieces of the outdoor skills already. 

 

A 10-20+ year tenured ASM? Not so much. I'd never demand that somebody like @@TAHAWK or @@Stosh take IOL's. They've been in Scouting longer than I have been alive. All it would do is insult them.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Sentinel947

[Krampus]

I saw a really good documentary a while back on USAF Pararescue, in Afghanistan i believe it was.

All I can say is thank you for your service and give you a salute!

 

I'll bet you're more than prepared to put on a really great high adventure program.  I wish I could be a part of it.

My cousin has a guy like this in his unit. Recon Marine, sniper, etc. Had to get him certified as an RSO. Showed up at the NRA training, showed them his military ID, discussed his qualifications, had his last few scores attested to by a Marine range master (and his CO). The NRA guys had him fire a round (scored off the charts) and signed his card. 15 mins of work.

[Eagle94-A1]

A 10-20+ year tenured ASM? Not so much. I'd never demand that somebody like @@TAHAWK or @@Stosh take IOL's. They've been in Scouting longer than I have been alive. All it would do is insult them.

 

 

We got a guy in our district who has been involved in Scouting since the early 1950s (actually he jokes he was born into Scouting since his dad was a DE at the time), is an Eagle, went to Philmont approx. 3-5 times as a camper, worked summer camp staff for a large number of years, worked at Philmont over 20 summers, etc etc, is a Vigil, Founder's Award recipeint, and is a Hornaday Badge recipient.

 

Is considered "untrained" because he hasn't done IOLS. Had to drag him to SM specific.

[TAHAWK]

There is "trained," and then there is "trained."  

 

Trained or Trained

There is a difference in Scouting between being "trained" and being "trained." Confusing? Yes! So what is the volunteer training team trying to do to help?

A Scouter is considered trained for his or her position in the BSA’s ScoutNET system when they have completed a prescribed course, or sequence of courses. This could be the current course set, or even a course or courses that they took in the past. For example, Scoutmastership Fundamentals if they took it back when it was the current "basic" training.

But the requirements say that to be able to wear the trained patch and for the unit to qualify under the unit Journey to Excellence (JTE) standards, the current training set for their position is necessary.

Why the difference? The BSA has long believed that a tenured leader does not need to take "basic" training every time there is a new course - because the assumption is through supplemental training, roundtables, Scouting magazine, and participation in activities, they stay up to date with the current methods and practices of the program.

But we need to be practical. With the approval of the district training committee, Scouters who were fully trained under a previous "basic" training for their current role (and of course have completed Youth Protection Training within the past two years) may be given credit as "trained" if, in the opinion of the training committee, the Scouter has continued to stay up to date with the current methods and practices of the program.

These Scouters would be eligible to wear the Trained emblem, be considered "trained" in the unit Journey to Excellence, and would meet the training criteria of the various training awards for their position. Entering the qualifying training courses and proper dates taken into the Scouter’s record in ScoutNET will also mark them as trained.

It is the desire of the National Training Committee that leaders take the current training to be sure that they have the up-to-date information related to their role. While there may be a challenge getting tenured leaders to take the time to take a new course, in most cases these leaders can be excellent resources for the training committee to help put on Specifics or an outdoor skills course. And as an instructor they should be given credit for completion of the course.

So if you staff current basic training, it's as if you took the training.  Do the Cooking session, and you're completely "trained" as if you actually took the entire course.

But we really, really want you to be "trained"  -- or "trained."

[SSScout]

"SMF"  =   Back then , they called it ScoutMaster Fundamentals.

 

"Layer Cake Stew"  =  Serves 6 to 8, depending on the time of year and size of Scout. Prep: 20 mins. Cook: 30 mins.
The directions may seem overly precise, but they are intended for beginning cooks.
Utensils:
  *MINIMUM size 10†x 3†deep cast iron skillet, ‘seasoned’ and oiled, or equivalent (dutch oven  may be used, but do not ‘top heat’)
* Cover for skillet. High top, if possible.
*cutting board and knife
* veggie washing brush
*pancake tuner/spatula or big spoon (for serving)
*big fork

Ingredients:
*½ lb. bacon, sliced 1/8†thin
* 1 lb. ground beef, lean
*1  fist size onion
* 3 fist size potatoes
*3  nice carrots
*  1 or 2 sticks celery
*  salt and pepper to taste
*  catsup on the side
*  water,  in big pot for rinsing and washing veggies.

Directions:
* Prepare nice, HOT fire. HOT coals preferred. Make preparations to support HEAVY skillet over HOT fire.  Cook stove may be used.
*  Place skillet on table or prep area.  Rub Soap on  OUTSIDE  and BOTTOM if using  open  fire.
***WASH YOUR HANDS WITH SOAP AND WATER***
* Bacon: COVER inside bottom of skillet with bacon. Leave no bare spots.
*  Beef:  Crumble ground beef evenly over bacon.
* Onion:  Remove skin , cut off ends and any bad spots. Rinse.  Cut in quarters and slice ¼†thick. Spread evenly over beef.
*Potatoes:  Cut out  eyes and bad spots. Do not peel. Scrub and wash well.  Slice into ¼†slabs and spread evenly over onions. Salt and pepper to taste.
* Carrots:  Cut off ends and any bad spots. Do not peel. Scrub and wash well. Cut diagonally (fancy!) ¼†thick and spread evenly over onions.
*  Celery:  Cut off ends and bad spots, leave leaves if green.  Wash well. Cut diagonally (fancy!) into ¼ “ pieces (leaves too)  and  spread evenly over carrots.  Try not to MOUND things up in the center.
* Clean up prep area. Cuttings to compost , if possible, otherwise, “Leave No Trace†guidelines.
**Place cover on skillet.  If it sits a little on top of the “stewâ€, don’t worry, it’ll settle down as it cooks.
**CAREFULLY lift the skillet and place on/over fire. Do not disturb for thirty (30) minutes. If there is no steam escaping after 10 minutes, the fire isn’t  hot enough.
*** After thirty minutes, remove from fire and lift lid. Poke potatoes with big fork. Should be soft.  If not, replace cover and place back on fire for ten more minutes. Try again.
****Salivate at will. Serve with biscuits or toast and jam.