Leader Training

[bubba.bubba]

I am a Leader with a few hats. I am a Pack Trainer, Troop and Crew Trainer, ASM, and Crew Advisor. I have asked this question but can not seem to get a straight answer. The question is how much time should a leader take to finish up his training. I have a few older ASM's that have been with the Troop for 10 plus years and are not fully trained. I strive for my 100 percent but they refuse to take the training. Ie IOLS. What can be done? Any suggestions? Thanks

[Stosh]

First of all, welcome to the forum! and thanks for posting a good question.

 

I don't know if one will ever be able to teach an old dog a new trick. Many have tried, but I don't know the statistical results of success.

 

One isn't going to be able to do much obtusely either, they've been around long enough they'll see through any shell games. 

 

So this leaves me with a question.  First of all these guys/gals have been around for 10 years and although haven't had the training haven't drawn any attention to it either.  Yeah, on paper and on their shirt, it might be a bit noticeable, but in the real world of taking the boys out and keeping them safe, is there really any problem?  Can they function as ASM's?  Do they know enough to be of benefit to the adult staff and do they work well with the boys?

 

If one can answer honestly - yeah, they do well in all those categories, then what would going and sitting through a council training class do to make any significant difference? 

 

Now, just to be sure you're not going to hit the red down arrow on me because you don't know me, let me put forth an idea that may or may not make a difference in the perception of what's really going on here.

 

You say that you are a Pack TRAINER, a Troop TRAINER, and a Crew TRAINER.  Is that focus on the importance of training in the Council clouding the situation in any way?  It would seem that you have set a very admirable goal to strive for of 100% trained in your unit.  Would these couple of folks be doing the training for you and your goals or would it be for the real benefit of the boys in the field?

 

Add to that, if push came to shove and one were to lose a couple of veteran ASM's would it be worth it only to beat the bushes and end up with a couple of newbie ASM's with training in their place?

 

Kind of a judgment call going on here, which is clearly in your ball park to act upon.  Whether or not you really want to do is up to you and regardless of what others may pose here on the forum, it's still your call. 

 

For me?  Okay, if these were good people, worked well with the boys, the boys like them, training would improve nothing, but would impose them having to waste an weekend at training just so I could meet my 100% goal.  I'd probably put people before the 100% goal, but that's just me.  I'd tell myself, they earned the right to be grandfathered it and then I would sleep better at night too. Of course being a Troop Trainer, you have access to the class curriculum and could teach these guys on the side so they have the information even if they don't have the certificate and patch.  That will be a great sleep aid as well and it will be all in the best interest of the boys if you think it is really necessary.

[Krampus]

I'd make sure they are not wearing the "trained" patch. Technically they cannot be considered a "trained" leader without those basic classes, so they cannot be counted as part of the trained adult leadership for summer camp, high adventure or any other BSA event.

 

I'd make sure they know that and then give them the IOLS sign up sheet.

[qwazse]

You might be in between a rock and a hard place.

 

In our council, training records have been brought up to date (so the registrar tells us) and any person without training for his/her position by the end of the year cannot be retained on the charter in that position. So, in our scenario, aggrieved CC or COR either drops the untrained member from the roster according to the regulations. Or, as has been suggested with my young-adult ASM's, changes them to unit scouter reserve. (I can't remember if that requires sending a new adult application.)

 

Nation-wide stats haven't been published yet, but we dropped many of our occasional ASMs and MCs because of this.

 

@@Krampus, good luck chasing down those trained patches. Our best ASMs won't even have them sewn on.

[CalicoPenn]

It depends on what your Council requirements are.  The BSA has a "pilot" program where Councils can require certain positions to show that they have been trained in a minimum number of courses in order to be re-registered at the next charter renewal.  National apparently hasn't yet rolled it out to all even though it's been in the pilot phase since 2010.  Every leader MUST take youth protection training, regardless of whether the Council is participating in the pilot or not.  If you're in a Council that requires that leaders have position specific training (and it's really not that onerous - for an ASM it's IOLS and one other course - all of which can be done by private coaching if need be) then they have to complete it by the next time the unit re-charters.  If you are in a Council that is taking part in this program, they'll reject those 10-year leaders if they have not gotten the proper training.

 

If you aren't in one of those councils, then unfortunately the answer is "as long as they want" since there is no requirement then for any training other than youth protection.  If National ever rolls it out across the board, then they'll probably have to get training before the next re-charter. 

 

BTW - welcome to the forum. 

Edited March 1, 2016 by CalicoPenn

[Eagle94-A1]

One "trick" I've used to get people to training is have them teach part of the class.

 

For example, the Eagle Scout who served multiple years on camp staff, served in the Army, and is a 3 beader, I got him to teach cooking skills in IOLs so he could be "trained."

 

Another Eagle, who worked multiple years on camp staff, did 3 treks at Philmont, I had teach orienteering at IOLS.

 

A third Eagle, who also worked summer camp, was a combat medic in Iraq and Afghanistan, is currently an EMT and has been to Philmont once, yep taught First Aid at IOLS.

 

Adapt, improvise, and overcome.

[bubba.bubba]

I appreciate all for their inputs. Not sure if my Council is participating in this program. It is a little hard being these people have been in Scouting each for up to 40 years plus. I am a little new to Scouting. Approximately 1 year and I have taken every training possible. I feel that to be an effective Trainer I Must have the knowledge to lead. Just a little info about me. I am a 9 year USAF Pararescueman. I was also a Leader in the American Naval Cadets for 8 years. So I am a believer in Lead, Follow, or Get out of the way. The BSA is pretty clear in what is expected. I was in the impression that these guidelines were to insure that the Scouts have a fun productive experience. This can only happen if all our leaders are trained. My goal and responsibility as a Trainer is to strive for excellence. 100 percent. I came into a troop that was restructuring from a SM that was not effective and training was not up to par. Have turned it around with 12 ASM and new Committee Members. Sometimes you can teach a new dog new tricks. I will figure out these issues. Will start with utilizing their backgrounds and incorporating this into a training program. I have the Backing of my Committees and Sm to do what is necessary to get this done. I t is just my goal. The tragedy in life is not reaching your goals. The tragedy lies in having no goals to reach. It is not a calamity not to reach the stars, but it is to have no stars to reach. For you see not failure but low aim is sin. Thanks again to all input an I will figure this out for the best of the Boys. Bubba

[Stosh]

Did ja know that people can get college credit for life experience?  Just sayin'

[Krampus]

It depends on what your Council requirements are.  The BSA has a "pilot" program where Councils can require certain positions to show that they have been trained in a minimum number of courses in order to be re-registered at the next charter renewal.  National apparently hasn't yet rolled it out to all even though it's been in the pilot phase since 2010.  Every leader MUST take youth protection training, regardless of whether the Council is participating in the pilot or not.  If you're in a Council that requires that leaders have position specific training (and it's really not that onerous - for an ASM it's IOLS and one other course - all of which can be done by private coaching if need be) then they have to complete it by the next time the unit re-charters.  If you are in a Council that is taking part in this program, they'll reject those 10-year leaders if they have not gotten the proper training.

 

BSA hasn't rolled that out nationally YET??? Geesh, I thought that was done in 2011. They required that as a pilot program in my council/district back in 2010, so we made sure EVERY leader had IOLS and leader-specific as a baseline. We then required all leaders to complete all the online training (weather, safe trek/climb, etc.). All leaders doing high adventure do WRFA too. 

 

I guess living so cloe to Irving I assumed BSA kept their word and rolled out the IOLS/leader-specific requirement nationally. Sad they didn't.

 

@@Krampus, good luck chasing down those trained patches. Our best ASMs won't even have them sewn on.

 

In my area it is easy. If you are not fully trained you can't wear the patch. We provide it BTW. We even have a dad who has needle and thread at every meeting. He will sew it on your uniform in less than 5 mins.

 

The BSA is pretty clear in what is expected. I was in the impression that these guidelines were to insure that the Scouts have a fun productive experience. This can only happen if all our leaders are trained. My goal and responsibility as a Trainer is to strive for excellence. 100 percent. I came into a troop that was restructuring from a SM that was not effective and training was not up to par.

 

We had a similar issue. As I noted, I live in an area that was subject to the 2010 pilot program to have all SMs and ASMs fully trained. I had to make sure several long-serving SMs got trained up or they could not be leaders. This caused much contention, but we ameliorated the problem by meeting with all the leaders, reviewing the training offered, noting why the boys deserve to have leaders who knew the training, and discussed how to get them trained. The unit even paid for the training.

 

In one case we had a father who was an EMT. He'd been a combat medic in the Marines (four tours) with a recon group. Making him get wilderness first aid training was a laugh, so we found a way to get him certified without having to waste one of his weekends. Another dad was a master-diver. He offered to run the water safety class after we found someone in council to sign off on his "equivalency" in swimming/boating given his 30 years as a master-diver, lifeguard and merchant sailor.

 

Maybe this approach might work for you. If you can find a way to recognize their "mastery" of a subject they might be more inclined to either a) demonstrate their mastery, or b) shut up and take the training. They can't profess to be God's Gift to being trained AND not somehow demonstrate that mastery.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Krampus

[Eagle94-A1]

One of the reasons why national has not made training mandatory yet is that the SCOUTNET training records are a mess.  For whatever reason,some councils like mine were not recording training in their records, just storing the paperwork.  When national started tracking training, then they started keeping records. BUT all the old timers who have "been there, taught that, have the beads" were listed as "Untrained"

 

For example, my district commissioner, who not only taught commissioner training on the local level, but was PTC staff on the topic was "untrained." (Remind me never to approach him ever again with computer errors   )  My son's SM, who was the training chair when I was a DE and I helped staff some of his courses was "untrained" You get the picture?

 

To make matters even more interesting, whomever at national that was creating the training codes at the time, only created codes for the current courses. For example, my SM Fundamentals course from '94 was not listed. And don't even mention some of the 1960s and 70s training courses that some of our leaders had taken. 

 

So I created a "training inventory" form that I gave to every leader that had all the current training with codes, older training I knew about, and left spaces for some of the additional training through the years.  Once that was done I created a spreadsheet with the names, IDs, and training codes with dates.

 

Here is where it got interesting, and it is coming back to bite us again. I was told by my DE after he consulted with the powers that be, to use the current training codes, but the original dates of the training. So my SMF became Intro to Scouting, SM Specific, and IOLS with a 1994 date. At the time, SCOUTNET accepted that, and people were "trained" once again. But now the issue has been fixed, and the original solution is causing issues. My Intro to Scouting, SM Specific, and IOLS with a 1994 date is no longer valid, hence I am "untrained" once again.

 

SOOOOO the process is being repeated with an updated inventory with codes. However some older trainings are still not listed.  However we have adapted and overcame.

 

 

One thing my DE recommended, and I have done ever since ESPECIALLY since some at national want folks to redo training every time the course name changes, is whenever I teach a course, I put my name as a student as well as instructor. That way if national ever decides to make people redo training every time the course name changes, I will be showing up as current.  Thankfully at the moment national is allowing council and/or district training chairs to decide whether to accept the older training or not.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Eagle94-A1

[Krampus]

One of the reasons why national has not made training mandatory yet is that the SCOUTNET training records are a mess.  For whatever reason,some councils like mine were not recording training in their records, just storing the paperwork.  When national started tracking training, then they started keeping records. BUT all the old timers who have "been there, taught that, have the beads" were listed as "Untrained"

 

 

Sorry to report that proximity to national has no guarantee of BSA data precision either. Went to a council camp, took training, not recorded or reported. Had I not kept my own cards and gone, on my own, to council to straighten it out I would not have gotten credit for nearly 50 hours of training!

 

Last year, after 12 years in the BSA records, my entire training history was wiped out online. Even my user ID was wiped out. Called BSA. Spoke to their technical team (think guy by a computer with little understanding of how their system actually works) and was told 1) Sorry for the mistake, 2) There's no way to get my data back (Me thinking: A major national organization has NO data back up for production data??!!), 3) They can restore my user ID but there will be no data behind it, and 4) If I want to go to the council office they will help be reconstruct my records PROVIDED *I* had all the training cards.  And they want my unit data for ScoutBook? 

 

Moral of the story: Keep annual printed back-up of your BSA records. Keep an archive of your Internet Advancement records. If BSA have another data loss incident those are the only records that might be around to prove anything. I'll never give BSA any data without having my own digital AND hard copy back-up.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Krampus

[Stosh]

Pull up a log around the fire, get out your cup, sit down, relax.  We're gonna just sit here until National gets it's act together,THEN we will do what's necessary.  Until then, do you want cream or sugar with that?

[qwazse]

@@bubba.bubba love your enthusiasm. But as you see, there are technical hurdles that will make you think that someone is untrained when they are not. There is also a lack of corporate discipline in that some units train their people so well (at least, in their opinion), they have neither time nor patience for district training. Folks under both circumstances will not countenance the "every boy needs a trained leader" mantra that you so enthusiastically adhere to.

 

This leaves you with a mess, because you have some seasoned scouters who are "all that" but just don't care if anyone recognizes them a such along with scouters who want to do it their way and would not want to change. But any list of names that your district puts out won't give you a hint at who's who.

 

I think your goal should be to personally invite 100% of your district's untrained leaders to the next training session -- either to be a trainee if they just registered in that position or a facilitator if they've been in that position for a while. Maybe see if you can get a seasoned scouter like your district commissioner to sit with you on a few of those calls. He/she might know which of your untrained list may need to be accorded a little more respect, and which are just bucking the system.

 

What kind of numbers are you looking at anyway? How many scouters are coming up as needing what kinds of training?

[hicountry]

Our council went to mandatory IOLS at the end of 2010, effected 2011 recharter. The SM taking over for me had nearly 20 years experience in Whitewater Guide, wilderness first aid, camping and running a cub pack 5 years before he took over for me. Had to go to IOLS, complete waste of time, when instructors figured out he knew more than them they proceeded to pick and argument with him on correct Marcus of Queensbury dish washing procedure. One ASM took the training too, he was an eagle with our troop, early 20's, led backpacking, hikes and campouts and was totally competent and again found it a waste of time, just there to check off the box.

I stayed on in 2011 to assist the new SM if he needed it, was an ASM but even though I had 2 years as an ASM and 5 as SM and lots of success with the troop and it's camping program was mandated to take IOLS. I registered as a committee member instead and actually served the troop as an ASM to get around the nonsense.

I understand the troop when they get new parent ASM volunteers since I left, they determine what camping and leadership experience they have regarding just IOLS......if they are very competent, they register these people as committee even though they serve the troop in function as ASM. Anyone with inadequate experience they make sure they do IOLS before register with troop as an ASM. Of course all take Youth Protection, SM fundementals or whatever it is called now, Safety afloat, weather, safe swim etc.

 

By registering competent campers as committee they get new help with the troop that in most cases would have balked had they been forced to take training that was in their cases, un-necessary.

[Eagle94-A1]

@@hicountry ,

 

It's not just the Boy Scout level training and IOLS.  I had to sit through BALOO in order to get that checked off so I could help take the pack camping. And I taught IOLS.

 

And I too was one of those "untrained" ASMs back in the day who had a whole boatload of outdoor and Scouting experience. I had to sit through SM Fundamentals, which included a model meeting and model camp out.  This was after spending 7 years as a Scout, going through Brownsea 22, and going through Eagle.

 

At least with the SMF course I learned about the paperwork side of Scouting.

 

One reason why I try and find folks who have the knowledge, skills, and abilities to teach the classes, whether they are "trained" or not. I hated sitting through courses I could teach, and I don't want folks to do that. 

 

Which is another reason I complained heavily when National tried to make folks go through training every time the course name changed.