Charter Org bankrupt?

[Krampus]

@@hicountry, for my money you don't have to justify your position. I think several (if not many) share that point of view given the circumstances. This is why we do not hold too much money at any one time. We also have listed assets of the unit (few) and listed assets which are "on loan" to the unit from a "friends of" organization. This protects the unit in case any one comes looking for our assets....not that our CO ever would.

[Rick_in_CA]

Our troop trailer was owned and registered by an individual, not the Co so we packed all the troops god equipment in the trailer that was parked off site. We filled Lockup with junk tents, junk cooking equipment and the like so if we went to new CO and old one wanted to claim the equipment they would be left with a lockup full of garbage basically. Troop funds were used to prepay summer camp, replace any worn equipment, down payments on wreaths for next wreath sale season and most of the balance was King Soopers gift cards used latter to buy groceries for campouts. Funds paid in advance by families for their sons activities were also refunded so those folks would not lose out.

We did not end up leaving for the new CO and all moneys were used appropriately but had we needed to change to new CO the troop the boys and the families would not have been robbed of the funds they had created in support of the troop.

 

Maybe these tactics would be of help to the original poster.

 

The rules may say it belongs to the CO but if CO did not provide any of it, those that created those assets and saw them go to the CO due to an arbitrary rule, to me that just constitutes theft and to me that is the greater wrong.

Wow! What you are describing is theft from the CO. You can justify it all you want, but you are describing is a crime. Putting junk in the lockup and hiding the "good stuff" offsite? Draining the treasury and laundering money into gift cards? And if the CO came looking, you would have gladly lied to them? On what planet is that the honest and right thing to do? If you have to lie and hide things, that is usually a sign that you are doing something wrong!

 

What a wonderful example for your scouts! A Scout is Trustworthy, A Scout is Obedient - unless it's inconvenient then how about some larceny?

 

If that was my unit, I would have quit on the spot and I would have reported it to the DE, CE and CO.

 

Character is what you do when no one is looking. Character is what you do when it's hard, unpleasant or unpopular! A Scout is Brave.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Rick_in_CA

[Stosh]

Nope, sorry, totally unacceptable Boy Scout morality.  You say the CO provided nothing when it comes to the troop.  Well according to the BSA and the CO's charter agreement, NONE of that troop would be in existence, been able to fund-raise tax free and exist in a location without the signature of the CO.  That troop owes it's very existence to that CO, and the BSA would totally agree with me.

 

Sorry, if my troop behaved in this manner, they would immediately be without a SM. That's not the character building lessons I wish to be a part of.

 

 

Wow! What you are describing is theft from the CO. You can justify it all you want, but you are describing is a crime. Putting junk in the lockup and hiding the "good stuff" offsite? Draining the treasury and laundering money into gift cards? And if the CO came looking, you would have gladly lied to them? On what planet is that the honest and right thing to do? If you have to lie and hide things, that is usually a sign that you are doing something wrong!

 

What a wonderful example for your scouts! A Scout is Trustworthy, A Scout is Obedient - unless it's inconvenient then how about some larceny?

 

If that was my unit, I would have quit on the spot and I would have reported it to the DE, CE and CO.

 

Character is what you do when no one is looking. Character is what you do when it's hard, unpleasant or unpopular! A Scout is Brave.

 

Thank you, If I could click the green arrow more than once I would.

[Krampus]

What bothers me in all this is everyone here is assuming the assets "belong" to the CO. They do....to a degree.

 

According to BSA's own Rules and Regulations (Article XI, Section 2 (b) says,

 

"In the case of a chartered organization [declaring bankruptcy], any funds or equipment which may have been secured as property of the unit shall be held in trust by the chartering organization or the char- tered local council, as may be agreed upon, pending reorganization of the unit or for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of America."

 

So the gear and money would not default to the CO, but rather to a trust to be held for the unit or a unit. Clearly BSA does not intend to allow the CO to liquidate the gear and use the unit money to pay off debt.

[SSScout]

Sad but true:   Cub Pack was very successful for many years. Chartered to a "hands off" Non profit CO.   Came a year when some families had to move away, no Tigers were signed up, some Cubs quit. Cub master says, son is "bridging over next year, I'm going too".  Pack needs new leadership.  One man says, he will be Webelos Leader. One mom says she will be new CCh,   Den leaders (2) stay on.  Come June,  no one is Cubmaster, everyone sees the handwriting on the wall, and transfer to other Packs.  Of the remaining families,  treasurer says,  "let's have a REALLY BIG picnic to end the year."   So they do, the Pack treasury is depleted, some awards are made to the Cubs, the Pack Committee (such as it was) votes to give the remainder of the treasury to the CO.  the CO is told the Pack is folding , they say "OK, Good Luck" and that's the end of the Pack.

[Stosh]

What bothers me in all this is everyone here is assuming the assets "belong" to the CO. They do....to a degree.

 

According to BSA's own Rules and Regulations (Article XI, Section 2 (b) says,

 

"In the case of a chartered organization [declaring bankruptcy], any funds or equipment which may have been secured as property of the unit shall be held in trust by the chartering organization or the char- tered local council, as may be agreed upon, pending reorganization of the unit or for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of America."

 

So the gear and money would not default to the CO, but rather to a trust to be held for the unit or a unit. Clearly BSA does not intend to allow the CO to liquidate the gear and use the unit money to pay off debt.

 

I'm thinking bankruptcy court trumps BSA's best card in their hand.  I don't know that much about bankruptcy laws, but from what I have seen elsewhere, a lot of times things don't always go the way everyone may wish.  Better to keep everyone's cards face up on the table at all times and even then there can be surprise.

[Krampus]

I'm thinking bankruptcy court trumps BSA's best card in their hand.  I don't know that much about bankruptcy laws, but from what I have seen elsewhere, a lot of times things don't always go the way everyone may wish.  Better to keep everyone's cards face up on the table at all times and even then there can be surprise.

That's not the point. We are lay people so we can ONLY go by what the documents we have say to us. This one CLEARLY says that assets DO NOT summarily go to the CO. So if @@hicountry is going to take the stance he is, it is not totally outside the scope, if not intent of the CO agreement.

 

We've been chatting about how the assets "belong to the CO". I am merely pointing out that, according to BSA Rules and Regulations, this is not the case. I don't see anything in the bylaws that gives the CO a unit's assets either.

[RememberSchiff]

What happens if a unit was in debt and shuts down, is the CO responsible to pay creditors?

[Krampus]

What happens if a unit was in debt and shuts down, is the CO responsible to pay creditors?

Good question. I didn't find anything to suggest that BSA or the CO were responsible...other than a few phrases around the reporting of finances and asset inventory due to the CO each year. One could infer that the CO is responsible to know the financial state of the unit. Maybe someone else will find something more concrete than that.

[hicountry]

I see it the same as Stosh's buddy and the car. If he took it to the shop and the night prior to the Bankrupcy issue someone called the owner of the car and said.....Hey Joe, shop xyz you have your car over at is filing chapter 11 in the morning, you better get it out of there if you still want it. Stosh's buddy decides he is high and mighty and feels that is not the right thing to do, leaves his car there and loses it in the shops bankruptcy mess the next day. Some might think it is honorable, most would agree it was foolish.

We didn't have to drop the CO and go to the new one but we did have an action plan that was partly engaged before things got mostly straightened out with the CO. All the funds and assets would have been 100% used for the purpose they were paid, donated, raised for.....Scouting. That is honest and ethical use of assets and funds. It is using the funds and assets as the payers, donators, fundraisers had intended, for scouting 100% and that is honest as far as I am concerned. To let someone else end up with the goods that were paid for 100% by others would be foolish. You can look at it anyway you want but losing what folks paid for and worked for to someone else is WRONG and I would never stand for it. To just stand there and let it all be taken because of some silly rules is lame.

What is wrong with using those funds to pay for what they were always intended for ? Boys and families who put in for Summer camp, is there some law that says you cannot pay the full amount a couple months early ? Lets say there is 2 grand in the troop account that is in there due to family payments, fundraising whatever and 10 boys signed up for Summer camp. You find Charter org may go belly up and you decide instead of a down payment in the fall and payment in full by April, you decide to just pay the full amount in January before CO goes under in February and that's wrong ? Just leave the money there for the CO to take and then go back to those families to pay again for what they already paid for ? That is the stupidest thing I have heard in recent memory.

[Krampus]

What is wrong with using those funds to pay for what they were always intended for ? 

 

...and BSA's own Rules & Regulations document would seem to be on your side...though they may not condone the actual actions, the intent is the same.

 

Personally, I agree with you.

[Stosh]

If I paid persona money in as a down payment that money is merely being held in trust and then I lose it, it would be like my buddy with the car and it would be worth it to challenge the bankruptcy courts on it.

 

But if my boy goes out and fundraises for an activity, that is something different. 

 

For the sake of argument, lets say a boy has an "account" with the troop.  If my son shovels a walk and takes his earned $15 and puts it into his "account" with the troop, it is no different than my deposit for summer camp money.  It is held in trust and does NOT belong to the CO.  Ethically I have a right to that money in that I have to pay taxes on it.

 

On the other hand if the troop is fund raising to subsidize the boys going to summer camp and my boy raised $15 for the cause and then decide that that money which was fund raised under the CO's non-profit umbrella is really mine, there's a whole different ethical mindset that I personally find inappropriate for scouts to be taught.

 

Let's go with a different approach

 

A church needs a new $1000 piano.  I'm the first one that knows about it so I write a $1000 check give it to the church, take a $1000 tax deduction, the church owns the piano

 

Same scenario, but I take that $1000 check and buy the piano on my own and move it into the church to use and take no tax deduction, the piano remains mine.

 

 

In one of my former units when it came to large holding accounts for major activities we had the parents simply write a check that we wouldn't cash until needed.  Duh, a holding account.  Time came to pay, we simply cashed the checks, and we were done.  CO held no cash value in the accounts.

 

So, once we got burned.  Check bounced.  Parents said too bad, so sad. Unit took them to small claims.  They didn't show, we refused the settlement and asked the judge for a desk warrant for their appearance.  They never showed, they were arrested, too bad, so sad.  We never got the money, but they got criminal records,,,too bad, so sad.

[Rick_in_CA]

I see it the same as Stosh's buddy and the car. If he took it to the shop and the night prior to the Bankrupcy issue someone called the owner of the car and said.....Hey Joe, shop xyz you have your car over at is filing chapter 11 in the morning, you better get it out of there if you still want it. Stosh's buddy decides he is high and mighty and feels that is not the right thing to do, leaves his car there and loses it in the shops bankruptcy mess the next day. Some might think it is honorable, most would agree it was foolish.

Actually, I think your "solution" is the moral equivalent of breaking into the garage to get your car back instead of going through the proper channels. After all, the car is yours! And you would have gotten it back eventually. But that would have taken days, or maybe even a few weeks! So you are fully justified when you break into the garage the next night, in order to retrieve your car. I'm sure the police that catch you outside will understand. It was the moral thing to do! You really needed your car for the weekend! After all, leaving it there would have been foolish.

 

Look @@hicountry, your desire to shield your troop from a problem CO is fully understandable. It would really suck if any troop suddenly lost all their gear and money to a messed up CO (or for any reason). But, sometimes bad things happen outside our control. What we can control is our responses to those things. BUT - our moral codes still need to guide those actions! And yes, sometimes doing the right thing has a cost, and sometimes it's hard. But we still should do it. People come up with justifications for doing the wrong thing all the time, we strive to be better than that.

 

And what would have happened if your troop had lost everything? How bad would it have been really? It would have sucked, but then you would have moved on, rebuilt and survived. And maybe your scouts would have learned some valuable lessons on the way (such as bad things happening don't have to be the end of the world). I read about a troop that lost all their gear a while back when there troop trailer was stolen. What did they learn? About the generosity of their fellow troops and surrounding community. About fundraising, and about bouncing back. They had loner gear within a week, and a new troop trailer and new camping gear within a couple of months. And a new appreciation for their own resilience in the face of adversity.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Rick_in_CA

[Krampus]

Look @@hicountry, your desire to shield your troop from a problem CO is fully understandable. 

 

BSA Rules and Regulations already provide for that. See the citation above.

[KenD500]

Update - The IH has told me the church is facing financial difficulties and more details would be following.  No word (and no message returns) from either COR or IH since then. 

 

Before last night's meeting, a group of people was touring the building with a realtor.  When I introduced myself, they let me know they're from another church down the road looking to buy the building.  Time frame may be this year.

 

I've reached out to the IH again.

 

It brought up another thought in my mind.  The current church is the Charter Organization.  If they no longer have a building, they (& the Troop) will no longer have a place to meet.  How difficult is it to transfer the charter to the new organization?  This may be the best situation for us.  Or may be to find another, more stable CO.