Now Arriving, the Return of the Lion

[Stosh]

<<t I do remember touring the local newspaper and watched them set print with a lithograph machine.  We all got a chunk a print that we got to keep.  >> 

 

 

Not to be picky,  but you mean a lineotype,  which cast slugs of type to be printed on a press.

 

Vastly more efficient,  but the same idea Gutenberg had,  

 

Linotypes were MARVELOUS  Rube Goldberg machines!

 

Cut me some slack there, @@SeattlePioneer I was just a dumb little 7 year old at the time.  I didn't learn about lineotypes until I was 8.....

Edited March 16, 2016 by Stosh

[blw2]

Sounds like you might know more about it that me, but I think they might have mean offset lithography plates

 

My brother in law was a pressman at the local newspaper for years, i got a couple tours through the years.

He used to grab one of the plates as collectables whenever a friend made the paper.  My sister got her wedding announcement plate.... although I think that might have been a specially made plate as a gift.  It was kinda nifty.

 

The paper eventually went the way of outsourcing to a regional press and shut down the local press in the city..... and he lost his job.

[Prepared]

Well it is official, my council has been approved to bring in Lion Scouts next year...I am still not sure how I feel about this. I understand why they are doing it and think it is a good idea...IF it is done right and IF the parents are as involved as they need to be to be successful. I am the CM for my pack and I was wondering what you all thought about my leaders and I voting on whether or not we want to actually bring in Lion scouts or if we want to pass on it, since it is so new.

[qwazse]

@, forget the vote. Either you're gonna support one more set of parents or you're not. Make up your mind and lead accordingly.

 

It might help if you touch base with a few pack parents who have five year olds.

[meyerc13]

Our Pack is really excited about this.  Every year when we do recruiting, we get asked by the Kindergarten parents if their boys can join (the girls can join Girl Scouts at that age).  Every year I have to turn people away and tell them to catch us the next year.  Now I can accept those boys into our Pack.

 

I know it is going to be a lot of extra work, the recommendation is to use experienced leaders, not just one of the parents who has no Scouting experience.  Hopefully we'll be able to identify a couple of the new parents as candidates to be Tiger Den Leaders the next year.

 

Let me put this thought out there, if your unit decides not to do it, but the neighboring Packs do, don't be surprised if you lose boys to the other Packs.  Our Pack is chartered by the Kiwanis, but associated primarily with two schools.  Yet I won't turn away a family from a different school if they like our Pack's program and want to join (we now camp four times each year, do lots of field trips, and generally have an engaged core of parents who make the Pack go).

[Prepared]

@, forget the vote. Either you're gonna support one more set of parents or you're not. Make up your mind and lead accordingly.

 

It might help if you touch base with a few pack parents who have five year olds.

That is the thing...I can make up my mind all day long, but if I do not have the support of the other leaders to do this crazy new thing than it would be more work for me. The guidance from council is that an experienced leader is the leader of the Lions and I don't know if I can do that without another leader saying they would do it. Apparently, they are highly recommended to NOT go to pack meetings because of how young they are...

[dilrod]

Here's my take of the Lion program so far.  We have 5 boys, and every boy has a parent with them.  Our Den Leader does a great job.  A few of us have run meetings as well.  It's a good group of parents, everybody helps out a bit.  There is a book with an adventure trail and the meetings are based around a theme, done in an hour.  We don't follow a real fixed script.  Just simple, fun play.  The Lions do everything the rest of the Pack does except overnight camping and the boys seem to behave well enough and have a good time.  They have CS uniforms but no neckerchief and will get the Lion badge as a temporary patch this spring.  Not sure what else I can add...any questions I can answer?  

[meyerc13]

Hi, thanks for sharing.  I have so many questions I don't know where to start... Might as well start at the beginning:

• Recruiting - does your unit recruit for Lions in the fall only?  If not, how do you do spring recruiting for Lions when the kids are pre-kindergarten and possibly not in the schools that feed the Packs yet?
• I've heard that the Lion Den should start with an experienced Scouter as the Den Leader.  Is that how your unit does it?  If so, at what point do they hand the den over to one of the parents, Middle of the year, or as they become a Tiger den?
• How often are den meetings?  Are they always held on the same day/time?  What day/time are the den meetings?  I've heard concerns about meeting schedules and bed times for the younger kids, when are your Pack meetings and has this been an issue?
• Do the adventures include outings and field trips?  If so, do you have them during your normally scheduled meeting times, or are they in addition to the normal den meetings?
• You mention that the Lions do everything the Pack does, do the families regularly attend all Pack meetings?  I've heard some suggestions that Lions only attend key Pack events (Blue and Gold, Pinewood Derby, etc.).
• I've heard that some Cub Scouting activities aren't available to Lions (such as Cub Scout resident camp in the summer before they start Kindergarten), does your Council or District have any events geared specifically to the Lions?
• There is a lot of talk about retention and burn-out... any idea how many kids who start as Lions stay in Cub Scouting through Webelos, and or beyond into Boy Scouting?
• I'm also curious about parent involvement.  With two years (Lion and Tiger) of parents attending meetings with their boys, does that result in higher parent involvement at the Wolf-Bear-Webelos levels? 

Thanks in advance, I'm not sure what your role is or how many of these questions you can answer, but I'm trying to put together some information on how this has been working for units who have experienced it, and any information is helpful.

[fred johnson]

Recruiting - does your unit recruit for Lions in the fall only?  If not, how do you do spring recruiting for Lions when the kids are pre-kindergarten and possibly not in the schools that feed the Packs yet?

 

--- We only do fall recruitment.  Too much idle time in the summer where the pack can look bad to new members.  We are still active in the summer, but we have only half of normal participation at best.

 

--- We've had some parents visit but then say their younger K boy is just not mature enough to get anything out of it.

 

 

 

I've heard that the Lion Den should start with an experienced Scouter as the Den Leader.  Is that how your unit does it?  If so, at what point do they hand the den over to one of the parents, Middle of the year, or as they become a Tiger den?

 

--- We've done both and are in year 3 or 4.  With experienced scouters, we've had inconsistency from available time from the experienced scouter.  One only was available once.  The other a bit more.  

 

--- The other aspect is if you don't recruit a volunteer immediately, then transitioning later and getting someone to step up is much harder.

 

 

 

How often are den meetings?  Are they always held on the same day/time?  What day/time are the den meetings?  I've heard concerns about meeting schedules and bed times for the younger kids, when are your Pack meetings and has this been an issue?

 

--- Inconsistent.  Some meet regularly.  Some just now and then.  

 

--- Bed times are consistently an issue.  Parents have to drive home and have diner.  As such, our pack meetings start between 6:30pm and 7:00pm.  That's as early as possible.  Finishes around 8pm to 8:30pm.  It's too late for many.  Getting them riled up that late is not good either.  Definitely too late for kindergarten scouts.

 

 

Do the adventures include outings and field trips?  If so, do you have them during your normally scheduled meeting times, or are they in addition to the normal den meetings?

 

--- Make it almost all go-see its.  

--- I'd almost ditch all the normal meeting stuff unless you can make it great and meaningful to a 5 year old boy.

 

 

You mention that the Lions do everything the Pack does, do the families regularly attend all Pack meetings?  I've heard some suggestions that Lions only attend key Pack events (Blue and Gold, Pinewood Derby, etc.).

 

--- Yep.  It's hard to split administration between four grades and one or two other grades.  As such, you pretty much end up running one program for K to 5th.  It don't work so well.

 

--- I'm concerned with pinewood derbies etc.  Now a scout has six years of pinewood derbies.  Got multiple kids.  He can race as a younger sibling.  IMHO, it removes most of the magic as a first time kid building his car.  

 

 

I've heard that some Cub Scouting activities aren't available to Lions (such as Cub Scout resident camp in the summer before they start Kindergarten), does your Council or District have any events geared specifically to the Lions?

 

--- Yep.  

 

There is a lot of talk about retention and burn-out... any idea how many kids who start as Lions stay in Cub Scouting through Webelos, and or beyond into Boy Scouting?

 

--- This is the big issue.

--- Four years in and it's ho-hum okay or repetitive.  Why not go try something else?

--- Got multiple kids?  Let's see ya volunteer as a Lion den leader after 10+ years of cubs already.

 

 

--- Lions turns scouting into a generic community ed program instead of the independence building, take responsibility, adventure program scouting can be.  

 

 

I'm also curious about parent involvement.  With two years (Lion and Tiger) of parents attending meetings with their boys, does that result in higher parent involvement at the Wolf-Bear-Webelos levels? 

 

 

Thanks in advance, I'm not sure what your role is or how many of these questions you can answer, but I'm trying to put together some information on how this has been working for units who have experienced it, and any information is helpful.

 

--- My main advice.  Recruit your volunteers early.  Keep it simple.  Don't worry about any legalistic advancement as the scout is way too young to expect that sort of thing.  

 

--- My advice to parents.  Start your cub in 2nd or 3rd grade.

Edited April 8, 2016 by fred johnson

[meyerc13]

Thanks, this is helpful information!

[dilrod]

 

• Recruiting - does your unit recruit for Lions in the fall only?  If not, how do you do spring recruiting for Lions when the kids are pre-kindergarten and possibly not in the schools that feed the Packs yet?  We were recruited in the fall at school open house.  No pre-K recruiting.  Anyone would be welcome throughout the year.
• I've heard that the Lion Den should start with an experienced Scouter as the Den Leader.  Is that how your unit does it? Yes.  If so, at what point do they hand the den over to one of the parents, Middle of the year, or as they become a Tiger den?  He started asking if anyone would like to lead a meeting  a few months in.  3 of us have done it so far.  The same DL has stayed with the Den.
• How often are den meetings?  Are they always held on the same day/time?  What day/time are the den meetings?  I've heard concerns about meeting schedules and bed times for the younger kids, when are your Pack meetings and has this been an issue? We meet 2 Tuesdays a month from 7 PM to 8 PM.  Also one Pack meeting a month, sometimes that finishes closer to 8:30.  No one has complained about the times.
• Do the adventures include outings and field trips?  If so, do you have them during your normally scheduled meeting times, or are they in addition to the normal den meetings? We had a museum visit planned but it fell through.   The Den attended the other Pack events: fire station visit, outside adventures, etc...
• You mention that the Lions do everything the Pack does, do the families regularly attend all Pack meetings?  Yes. I've heard some suggestions that Lions only attend key Pack events (Blue and Gold, Pinewood Derby, etc.).  Our boys did that, too.  They had fun & behaved pretty well.  I think the Den meetings are important to build group cohesiveness among the boys.
• I've heard that some Cub Scouting activities aren't available to Lions (such as Cub Scout resident camp in the summer before they start Kindergarten), correct, no overnights. does your Council or District have any events geared specifically to the Lions? No.
• There is a lot of talk about retention and burn-out... any idea how many kids who start as Lions stay in Cub Scouting through Webelos, and or beyond into Boy Scouting? We'll see, but I'm sure this group will move up to Tigers intact.  None of us have been pressured enough to burnout.  I think the Pack leadership recognizes easing these parents in.
• I'm also curious about parent involvement.  With two years (Lion and Tiger) of parents attending meetings with their boys, does that result in higher parent involvement at the Wolf-Bear-Webelos levels? Good question, I hope so!  I plan to stick around, got a baby at home who will be starting Kindergarten about the time my oldest can crossover to Boy Scouts.
•  

 

The only other thing I would point out is there are no set achievements or electives.  No badges, belt loops, beads or doodles.  Just the adventure theme.

Edited April 8, 2016 by dilrod

[Prepared]

@dilrod I was told that the Lions would not be participating with the pack at all (at least that is the guidance). Is this not the guidance given?

[SSScout]

At a recent Council Commish meeting, we were told that our Council:

1) Will have the Lion program available for "testing".

2) That a Pack may "ask" to be allowed to do the Lion program when the details are announced , end of May, perhaps,  that if the Pack was deemed a solid pack, (this was not explained, only they did not want a "troubled" Pack to try a new program , if they had other problems), Council would work with them....

3)  "Wait for details, to come".............

[meyerc13]

That's the same thing we are hearing in our District.  The challenge now is deciding on how to filter out the 'troubled' Packs.  The District staff doesn't want to 'judge' units, even though the volunteer Commissioners and the District staff all know which Packs are really struggling.  For one of those Packs to go out and recruit Lions, they may increase the size of their Pack in the short term, but it will likely only be a temporary bump if they then lose those kids forever because they don't have a good program.  It would be a poor idea for a Pack without a healthy Committee and without enough Den Leaders to try to take on a Lion Den.  The Pack is supposed to provide a 'Guide' to the Lion Den and a 'Coordinator' to go between the Pack and the District on matters concerning the Lion Den.  For a Cubmaster who is already doing ten other things, it isn't fair to the Cubmaster or the kids to try to add these roles onto a plate that is already overfull.  Likewise, I've heard that the Lions shouldn't be forced to participate in the fall popcorn sale.  That means the Pack is going to need to have healthy fundraising to help cover the costs of these new kids (see more on this below).

 

My recommendation to our District is to ask Packs to sign an agreement laying out the minimum expectations.  (Everything that follows is my opinion only, and not official BSA or Council policy.)  If they know they must provide an experienced Guide to the Lion den who isn't already a Cubmaster or Den Leader for a different den (this isn't official BSA policy that I've seen, but merely my opinion based on information I've gathered from other Councils who have tried this program), I suspect many troubled units will be excluded automatically.  If they know they are going to need to raise extra funds to cover the costs of outings and supplies for that Den (again, not exactly official policy, although they do seem to emphasize not having Lions participate in fundraising, and also limiting the first year costs for these families so I suspect heavy Pack Dues may be frowned upon as well), then I suspect even more Packs will be excluded.  Maybe some Packs can use this as a conversation starter with their parents - "Hey parents, if you want us to try out the Lion program, we need more of you to step up and help out.  Without your help, we don't meet the requirements."

 

One way or another, if they really only want healthy units, they are either going to have to reject unhealthy units or lay out minimum criteria that we all know the unhealthy units can't meet.  If you do the first, you might end up with hurt feelings.  Packs won't know why certain units are picked and others not picked.  They'll think it is favoritism.  If you go the second way, there is no mystery why certain units aren't running the program, and at least those units know which areas they need to improve in order to do it next year.

 

I've found some 'applications' for units to start a Lion program from other Councils that are publicly accessible on the Internet.  I'm going to show these examples to our District staff, and hopefully we can use these as a model when we come up with our own.

 

I'm really excited by this new program.  I'm an experienced Den Leader and Cubmaster whose son just crossed over.  I still want to stay active in Cub Scouting with the Pack I helped to revive, and I think that starting up the Lion program in our District is a great opportunity to use my skills while at the same time not taking on too much.  I think I might even be able to convince my wife to help me.. she has a degree in early childhood education and this would give her a chance to use her skills and for us to work together on something.

[dilrod]

@dilrod I was told that the Lions would not be participating with the pack at all (at least that is the guidance). Is this not the guidance given?

 

I never heard it.